Winter in Toronto

Hi all,

I'm considering the Soul EV as a second vehicle, mostly for use around the city and surrounding area.
Does anyone here have winter experience with this vehicle? I'm curious what the range performance might be like during the colder months of the year. I'd probably spring for the 'Luxury' edition given that it includes the heat pump, which is said to increase cold weather range via heating load reduction. Pre conditioning would be possible for morning commutes, but not for the return trip (no workplace chargers around here).

The specs indicate around 150km of slower city type driving, but I assume this is for weather around 20C. What might this drop to at say, -10C, which is fairly typical here in the winter, except for the very coldest days.

I also wonder how this range may look after a few years of use, and battery performance begins to drop off, but I suppose it's too soon too know given this vehicle hasn't been on the market very long.

Any input from cold climate users would be appreciated!

I think it's too new for many people to have real data, just started rolling out more this past couple of months. There are plenty of people around with Leaf's and yes the battery does drop in the winter, maybe 80% on the worst days. Also Kia have an 8 year 70% battery capacity warranty so while the battery may drop off with age if it goes to far they have to fix it.

I'm in Ottawa, so colder than Toronto. I have a 22km round trip to work and then my worst case regular evening out adds another 60km to that. I would have 1 hour to get some charge in to the battery if needed. I bought my Soul EV Luxury and intend to run it for 10+ years, I'm happy that at 10 years old in the cold I'll still make 80+kms under the worst case conditions.

notfred said:

I think it's too new for many people to have real data, just started rolling out more this past couple of months. There are plenty of people around with Leaf's and yes the battery does drop in the winter, maybe 80% on the worst days. Also Kia have an 8 year 70% battery capacity warranty so while the battery may drop off with age if it goes to far they have to fix it.

I'm in Ottawa, so colder than Toronto. I have a 22km round trip to work and then my worst case regular evening out adds another 60km to that. I would have 1 hour to get some charge in to the battery if needed. I bought my Soul EV Luxury and intend to run it for 10+ years, I'm happy that at 10 years old in the cold I'll still make 80+kms under the worst case conditions.

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Ah yup.. I remember Ottawa winters. I lived half an hour outside Ottawa when I was a kid. A little more severe than Toronto
I think your figures / expectations work out.
Hopefully, the provincial and municipal governments get on building out some more charging infrastructure soon! (lots more)
I'd probably go for the Luxury (heat pump) model too, given the range it would add vs. plain resistive heating for the cabin.

I've done a little research online and found a Kia parts seller that stocks parts for the EV (in the States). Found the traction battery, charging units, controller, heat pump components (electrically powered compressor) etc. Those parts are certainly not cheap.. hopefully they hold up well. With time, perhaps some of these costs will fall. On the upside, the warranty isn't bad. Here's a link to the site for anyone who may be curious: http://www.kiapartsnow.com/2015-kia-soul-ev-parts.html

That's useful reference material for me, since I do all my own vehicle work, and tend to keep my cars a long time (years and mileage).

One thing I was wondering though, about the battery warranty.. Kia guarantees 70% minimum after 8 years (and will restore to 70% if it drops below). Here's my question: We know that battery capacity varies with temperature (it drops when it is cold). Is that 70% capacity at X degrees ambient? Or is that 70%, under the more severe winter operating conditions that we'd expect in January-February (such as -20C or so)?

2016Electric said:

I've done a little research online and found a Kia parts seller that stocks parts for the EV (in the States).

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link!

That's useful reference material for me, since I do all my own vehicle work, and tend to keep my cars a long time (years and mileage).

Click to expand...

I don't know how this works in the States, but in Europe (I guess most countries, but I'm sure there will be an exception somewhere) you only get the "normal" warranty as every manufacturer is legally obliged to give. The "extended" warranties for 7 years (or 150k km) can have additional limitations. One of those is that you'll have to go to an official Kia dealer on the regular maintenance intervals.

We know that battery capacity varies with temperature (it drops when it is cold). Is that 70% capacity at X degrees ambient? Or is that 70%, under the more severe winter operating conditions that we'd expect in January-February (such as -20C or so)?

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Does this really matter much? If you do the test at -20C with a new car the effective range will be different too.

Let's say the normal range is 150km at +20C. Then at 70% it will be 105km. That's 45 km difference.
If the range is something like 120km at -20C. Then at 70% it will be 84km. That's 36 km difference.

Sure, the difference is less when it is colder, but there is "just" a 9 km difference between the differences.

I hope I'm not confusing you too much; English is not my native language, sorry. My point is that they won't say "You bought the car when it was +20C and the range was 150km and now it happens to be -20C and you can only drive 90km which is less than 70% of 150 so now we'll give you a new battery".

Anyway, I think they'll test the battery in their lab or work shop or whatever and I'm pretty sure that'll be around normal ambient inside temperatures.

There was an informal comparison of the heat pump heater vs element heater ... I typically observed it using a max of approx 2kw and tapering down to a few hundred watts once the cabin temperature was achieved. The owner in the Ottawa area found he used closer to 4kw and it didn't taper down as low ... so yes, in general the heat pump uses less energy to heat the car in the winter ... you can achieve a bit more range with pre-heating at home. I'm in the same boat with no at-work charging. I typically found I used 75% of the battery on my commute (~100km). During the summer, even with A/C, I typically find I have approx 40% charge left when I get home. Now, I only had the car in March and April ... it was cold a few days but not typical January cold... so if range is a concern, the Luxury model with heat pump is worth the extra ... I doubt you'll save the extra cost in reduced energy, but the little bit extra range can be helpful.

I have a RAV4EV in Rochester, NY. Two winters of data (about 36k miles total). It's not identical because it has the resistance heater...but our GOM range shows about 2/3rds in the middle of winter. The car starts in the garage but spends it's day outside.

You will have better results with the heat pump. I typically don't go off the GOM much because it's extremely pessimistic in the RAV4EV. I can usually beat it by 30-40%.

Mike

JeroenE said:

2016Electric said:

I've done a little research online and found a Kia parts seller that stocks parts for the EV (in the States).

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link!

That's useful reference material for me, since I do all my own vehicle work, and tend to keep my cars a long time (years and mileage).

Click to expand...

I don't know how this works in the States, but in Europe (I guess most countries, but I'm sure there will be an exception somewhere) you only get the "normal" warranty as every manufacturer is legally obliged to give. The "extended" warranties for 7 years (or 150k km) can have additional limitations. One of those is that you'll have to go to an official Kia dealer on the regular maintenance intervals.

We know that battery capacity varies with temperature (it drops when it is cold). Is that 70% capacity at X degrees ambient? Or is that 70%, under the more severe winter operating conditions that we'd expect in January-February (such as -20C or so)?

Click to expand...

Does this really matter much? If you do the test at -20C with a new car the effective range will be different too.

Let's say the normal range is 150km at +20C. Then at 70% it will be 105km. That's 45 km difference.
If the range is something like 120km at -20C. Then at 70% it will be 84km. That's 36 km difference.

Sure, the difference is less when it is colder, but there is "just" a 9 km difference between the differences.

I hope I'm not confusing you too much; English is not my native language, sorry. My point is that they won't say "You bought the car when it was +20C and the range was 150km and now it happens to be -20C and you can only drive 90km which is less than 70% of 150 so now we'll give you a new battery".

Anyway, I think they'll test the battery in their lab or work shop or whatever and I'm pretty sure that'll be around normal ambient inside temperatures.

Click to expand...

Yeah obviously not a new battery - didn't expect that. The question had more to do with KW capacity at X temperature and whether eventual loss in capacity would be linear for winter vs. Summer.

Anyway, something else I wasn't sure about and perhaps someone might know. The Soul can be charged at up to 6.6 kw I believe ... and just over 1 kw on the included level 1 charger. If one were to connect the ev to a 3.3 kw charger, would the onboard charger reduce charging current automatically via sensing the lower capacity charger? I know several different ratings are available...

2016Electric said:

Anyway, something else I wasn't sure about and perhaps someone might know. The Soul can be charged at up to 6.6 kw I believe ... and just over 1 kw on the included level 1 charger. If one were to connect the ev to a 3.3 kw charger, would the onboard charger reduce charging current automatically via sensing the lower capacity charger? I know several different ratings are available...

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Yes, the EVSE will tell the car what the maximum capacity is that the EVSE is able (or willing) to provide. The car will adjust the loading accordingly. This is true for all cars that follow the J1772 signalling protocol (which is about all the current available electric cars).

In Europe most EVSE's only provide 3,6kW on a single phase (for 11kW in total for all three phases). It's very rarely you'll find a public loading spot that has 7,2kW on a single phase (and 22kW in total). Even for home loading this is usually not present as you'll need a circuit with a 32A breaker/fuse instead of the standard 16A circuits.

JeroenE said:

2016Electric said:

Anyway, something else I wasn't sure about and perhaps someone might know. The Soul can be charged at up to 6.6 kw I believe ... and just over 1 kw on the included level 1 charger. If one were to connect the ev to a 3.3 kw charger, would the onboard charger reduce charging current automatically via sensing the lower capacity charger? I know several different ratings are available...

Click to expand...

Yes, the EVSE will tell the car what the maximum capacity is that the EVSE is able (or willing) to provide. The car will adjust the loading accordingly. This is true for all cars that follow the J1772 signalling protocol (which is about all the current available electric cars).

In Europe most EVSE's only provide 3,6kW on a single phase (for 11kW in total for all three phases). It's very rarely you'll find a public loading spot that has 7,2kW on a single phase (and 22kW in total). Even for home loading this is usually not present as you'll need a circuit with a 32A breaker/fuse instead of the standard 16A circuits.

Click to expand...

Ah, good to know, thanks!

I installed this charger (http://www.pluginnow.com/content/power-max%E2%84%A2-30a-25ft-cord) and it maxes out the charging capacity of the Soul EV as it outputs up to 7.2 kW.

re: the 70% capacity claim, it has nothing to do with range. Range is a factor of how you use the vehicle as much as it is about battery capacity. The 70% warranty covers the capacity of the battery pack itself. So, Kia advertises a 27kW battery, if it gets to the point where < 70% * 27 kW = 18.9 kW can be stored in it, then you should qualify for warranty replacement. However technically Kia will only need to replace enough cells to get you back to 70% capacity not all the way to 100%. Whether they would actually do that and not get you back close to 100% remains to be seen 5 years from now when maybe we learn the batteries need replacing en masse =)

I am a little bit confused by this heat pump, when I hit auto heat, all the lights turn on including the A/C indicator and I thought that made no sense to have both the A/C and heat on at the same time. Somebody today was telling me that this is a more efficient system that uses the A/C in reverse somehow? Can anybody clarify this unique heat pump setup?

In my car sometimes it does this too, sometimes it'll only turn on the heat. It hasn't been that warm that I saw it only turn on the airco.

I guess that the airco gets turned on to remove some humidity from the air, but I don't know for sure. When I think it is not needed I just push on the airco to turn it off.

A heat pump is system that can transfer heat from one place to the other. If you look at it simplistically a refrigerator or air-conditioner do this too. They transfer the heat from the inside to the outside. Most systems can work only in one way. You can't turn your refrigerator into an oven.

When people say they have a heat pump system it usually means that that system can work both ways. So in the summer it can cool your house and in the winter it can heat your house.

The same goes for your car. It is more energy efficient to use a heat pump as heating than use the electricity itself to generate heat.

The heat pump is an A/C system that can run in reverse to pump heat from the coolant in to the cabin or run normally to pump heat out of the cabin. In addition to the heat pump there is also a normal electric heater as well.

The Soul EV has a moisture sensor at the top of the windscreen behind the mirror. When this detects that the atmosphere in the car has a high humidity level or when the windscreen clearing button is pressed then the system will run both heat and A/C to warm and dry the air. In this case the heat pump is working as A/C and the heat is provided by the normal electric heater. Both heat and cool lights are lit up and this is what you are seeing.

The normal electric heater will also provide heat when the car is first started and it doesn't have enough heat in the coolant to run the heat pump to provide heat. I see this when starting up with 2-3kW going to climate control. Once the car has warmed up the coolant I see it drop back to under 1kW which is the heat pump maintaining the temperature.

Thanks for the info. I will just let it do what it does with the AC on auto heat then. I have been tempted to turn off the A/C light thinking I knew better than the computer. Also on a related note, I was told that if you have it still plugged in in the morning and set the climate controls to heat the car up a few minutes before you are set to leave, that it will heat it up directly from the plugged in charger and won't deplete the battery when you are ready to take off. I assume this is a setting in the UVO system. Anybody who has set this up before, please tell me if it works as advertised, or if I might as well keep it simple and turn the heat on after I start driving. Thanks.

MacGuffin said:

Also on a related note, I was told that if you have it still plugged in in the morning and set the climate controls to heat the car up a few minutes before you are set to leave, that it will heat it up directly from the plugged in charger and won't deplete the battery when you are ready to take off. I assume this is a setting in the UVO system.

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My usual schedule to work is so predictable I just use the pre-scheduled heating.

I know the car can run the climate controls when plugged in. For example when you're in the car waiting while fast charging.

I never tried this with a normal charge but I can't imagine why it wouldn't work. Even if it didn't, the charger would start charging the battery when the car uses energy from the battery.

As far as I know this had nothing to do with the UVO system.

Ok, I will have to mess with it to figure out the pre-scheduled heating. I thought it was on the UVO app.

MacGuffin said:

Ok, I will have to mess with it to figure out the pre-scheduled heating. I thought it was on the UVO app.

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JeroenE Is right. The system uses the plugged in power to preheat or precool the car when plugged in and won't use the battery. The only difference is if you're plugged in with the included level 1 charging cable. That cable charges the car at such a low power that it will need more power from the main battery because it just can't supply enough itself.

I know this for a fact because once I used the level 1 charger to charge the car and preheat before i got in and when I got into the car the battery level was just below 100%.

notfred said:

The heat pump is an A/C system that can run in reverse to pump heat from the coolant in to the cabin or run normally to pump heat out of the cabin.

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The heat pump for the Soul EV is made by Hanon Systems. Their description is "The heat pump system is a solution to heating electric, hybrid and internal combustion engine vehicles where there is insufficient waste heat for cabin heating. Redirection of the refrigerant via valves allows cooling of the vehicle using the same system components. The system can extend the driving range of environmentally-friendly electric vehicles because it can cool and heat the vehicle using a minimum amount of energy. "
http://www.hanonsystems.com/En/Technology/Ev#tab1-1

Yes, thanks, I went into the scheduled climate charging menu in the EV menu and set it all up. It is now toasty warm and the battery still at 100 when I take off. It is plugged into a level 2. Even with the supposedly super efficient heater it still sucks a lot of battery when I use the heater on the trip, range will fall closer to 80 miles.

Hi, just want to share some cold climate experience, being in my first winter with the Soul EV.

The other day I took my daily commute to work (50 km one way) in -23C. I had a comfortable +19C set for the heater, and at arrival the car had used 44%. The best I had during summer was 22%, so half the mileage at below -20C is probably what could be expected.

I have also noted that slowing down is not as beneficial for the consumption as it was during summer, and obviously that's because the heating system gets a greater share of the total consumed energy. I was monitoring the heater consumption during the trip, and it was between 3.5 - 5.0 kW most of the time.