Cells in HV battery

nware0 · Jun 16, 2021

Hello, everyone

What are the dimensions of this cell?

I collect all information that I found about cells from Kia soul HV battery.
Kia battery is made from 192 cells

Cells in modules are E375 and E400
E375 cell is a 37.5Ah cell. This is the cell used in the 27 kWh Kia Soul EV from June 2014 to June 2017. It is NMC622 LMO Free

E400 cell is a 40.0 Ah cell. This is the cell used in the 30 kWh Kia Soul EV from June 2017 to May 2019.
It is also used for battery replacements of the first generation cars.

http://menu-principal-forums-aveq.1097349.n5.nabble.com/file/n33967/0-assembly.png

14 cells module size is ~ 27,5cm x 36cm x 17,5cm
10 cells module size is ~ 27,5cm x 36cm x 13cm

One single cell comparing to case/module size should be more less like 35cm x 13,75cm x 1,25cm

What is the real size of single cell ?

IanL · Jun 17, 2021

My understanding is that the 192 cells (96 cell-pairs) relates to the 27 kWh battery, whereas the 30 kWh battery has 200 cells (100 cell-pairs). That suggests that the 30 kWH battery has four 11-cell-pair modules, rather than 10-cell-pair modules.

JejuSoul · Jun 17, 2021

-
There is still so much we don't know about the battery including the size of the pouch cells.
It seems likely that the E375 and the E400 cells are identical in size because my car had a replacement battery where 192 E375 cells were taken out of the pack and 192 E400 cells put in. The position and wiring is identical.
Each E400 cell is probably slightly heavier than the E375 given the relative weights of the two battery packs.

We do not know the total capacity of the 30kWh pack, we just know that degradation is much slower.
I have not seen the layout of the modules for the 30kWh pack.

Does anyone know these details?

Tcalp · Jun 23, 2021

For those people mentioning whether or not SK is providing 'reused cells'. I don't think this makes any sense, I'm sure then it's a 'remanufactured pack' they are just sending new battery cells to be changed out. It would cost to much to move the old cells around, have them tested for re-charge/life expectancy / etc ...

I'm curious if they are still using 2017 'generational' technology in the E400 cells at this point, as I'm sure they have continued to tweak the formulas over the years to allow for better and better life

JejuSoul · Jun 24, 2021

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No. They are not just sending new cells to be replaced out in re manufactured packs.
It's a different part number and a very different price. One comes from the battery manufacturer in South Korea, the other comes from a re-manufacturing plant in Texas.

Looking at the Kia parts website - Kia Soul EV Re-manufactured Battery (37510-E4250R)
This battery costs $1,609.50 and fits all models both 27kWh and 30kWh

Looking at the Kia parts website - Kia Soul EV Replacement Battery (37510-E4250)
This battery costs $12,293.25 and fits all models both 27kWh and 30kWh

---

The E400 cell is 2012 technology. That is when they began testing the properties of this cell. The published data in 2014 was after a couple of years testing. Manufacturing began in 2016. The cells first went into a production car in 2017.

I think it is quite likely that the E400 cells produced today are improved from those produced in 2017. For example any single part of the cell that has been improved in the meantime may now be used. For example if the battery separator technology improved, all new cells may use this improvement because there is no longer any supply of the original.

JejuSoul · Jun 25, 2021

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There's some interesting battery videos from Ukraine.
In the first one we see the swollen battery cell from a failed pack.
They show a video from a car that has an 80km GOM at 100% but turtles at 30km.
This is a very failed battery. Reminds me of my old Hyundai Blueon.

The second video takes apart the battery and shows a failsafe lever that shuts down the battery if such swelling occurs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyqJZbWE44g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMGtyIZIw-I

I am amazed that 20,000 people have watched these videos. To be interested in swollen battery cells seems such an obscure topic.
Also amazing to see so many Soul EVs in Ukraine undergoing DIY battery repair.
It makes no sense to import these cars out of the country where the warranty is valid until after that warranty expires.
The cost of repair is just too high.
It is also worrying that after the warranty expires the value of our cars should be close to zero because of these repair costs.

nware0 · Jun 26, 2021

always is good to fix something instead scrap it. In previous post you wrote battery costs $12,293.25 but when you add to basket it cost much more

$36,196.00USD the same with refurbished. That's why a lot of people want fix it then replace it.

IanL · Jun 26, 2021

But the remanufactured battery only costs $1,600, so a car out-of-warranty should only be worth $1,600 or so less than it would otherwise be worth.

Or put another way, buying an 8 year old SoulEV for peanuts and spending $1,600 on a replacement battery sounds like a sensible plan.

nware0 · Jun 27, 2021

if you add to basket subtotal for refurbished one is $4,109.50 so not so good plan.

IanL · Jun 27, 2021

nware0 said:
if you add to basket subtotal for refurbished one is $4,109.50 so not so good plan.

Unless you have cells which swelled up and damaged the basket, why would you need a replacement basket?

JejuSoul · Jun 27, 2021

nware0 said:
always is good to fix something instead scrap it. In previous post you wrote battery costs $12,293.25 but when you add to basket it cost much more $36,196.00USD the same with refurbished. That's why a lot of people want fix it then replace it.

I totally agree it is better to fix our cars and have them last longer. Problem is exorbitant cost. $36,196.00USD is insane!

But I don't see the same pricing you do. On mine they add a $2,500USD core charge. Total is $14,793.25USD.

This price is before the service and handling cost. I doubt anyone would ever pay this outside of a warranty cover.

There was some previous discussions on these issues here :- Options to deal with degraded batteries other than warranty

nware0 · Jun 27, 2021

Sorry there was some error on site, today prices are $4,109.50USD refurbished and $14,793.25 new. So my bad, but anyway this prices are too high xD I bought my kia for 6000usd so don't want to spend more that 4000usd on battery to have at least 200 km range.

My kia 2015 is already out of warranty cover so that's why I looking for more info about battery and cells. For start I need to open modules and check exactly size of single cell inside module. I reviewed all manuals and forums but there are only speculations with no specific data.

JejuSoul · Jun 27, 2021

IanL said:
...Unless you have cells which swelled up and damaged the basket, why would you need a replacement basket?

Ian, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you need to think more before posting. Both here and on the SpeakEV site some of your recent comments have
been badly thought out. The basket referred to in this comment is the shopping basket on the website.

Analysis of battery data is hard. It requires lots of data and an open-mind on different possibilities. Jumping to simple conclusions often leads to uncertain claims becoming accepted as fact by many. Examples include the website wikipedia claiming to know the total capacity of a 30kWh Soul EV. Another is that the two values for the SOC displayed by the BMS show the unused buffer. I believe both of these common misconceptions to be false. But I can't prove it.

I began a Battery Ageing Model thread on this site about 6 years ago because I thought we could pin down the causes of battery degradation. I stopped collecting data for that thread about a year ago because I realised the issue is too complex to make any definitive statements.

JejuSoul · Jun 27, 2021

nware0 said:
...My kia 2015 is already out of warranty cover so that's why I looking for more info about battery and cells. ..

Did you see this. :- Battery Ageing Model

Omar said:
Car: Kia Soul EV+ 2015, Imported from California USA.

I have mentioned my car battery status a few months ago in this topic. Previously the degradation stopped during winter, the SOH showed even an improvement from 59.9% to 63.4%. But once the summer started, the degradation accelerated. It went down to 59%, then in few weeks to 55%, then to 47.3% in few days. The car dash was showing 58 miles on full charge.

Yesterday, I replaced 4 cells at an electric car repair shop. I am still waiting the BMS to adjust to see the improvement. But this morning was my first long trip after the repair, recently the car consumed 36% of the battery for the trip. This morning it consumed only 22%.

I will post an update once I see that the BMS is adjusting
...

Totally 370 $$

Each cell is sold for 57$, Labor charge is 142$

The cells are used ones, but of excellent SOH, the shop got them from a wrecked Soul EV with less than 15,000 Km ODO meter.

I know a guy who did the same 8 months ago, and his car is still fine, it travels around 175 km's on a full charge.
...

I changed 3 cells. 6 months later, I changed the whole battery. I could drive like 80 Km before I had to replace it.

nware0 · Jun 28, 2021

JejuSoul said:
Did you see this. :- Battery Ageing Model

Yes I saw, but everyone for now just replacing cells with the same used model E375 or in the best case for E400 new cells / or new battery E400. 30kWh so all of them in the same dimension.
I like to complicate my life and looking to mod battery to higher capacity. I was hoping to find the exact dimensions of cell inside module before I drop battery from car, but anyway I will drop it more times because for start I will create one or two new modules not all of them.

Our Original E375 Battery

IanL · Jun 29, 2021

How come the 14 cell modules and the 10 cell modules are both shown as 75Ah? Isn't 75 Ah the capacity of the whole battery, which would make the modules about 10.9 Ah and 7.6 Ah respectively?

nware0 · Jun 29, 2021

IanL said:
How come the 14 cell modules and the 10 cell modules are both shown as 75Ah? Isn't 75 Ah the capacity of the whole battery, which would make the modules about 10.9 Ah and 7.6 Ah respectively?

No, single cell had when new 37,5Ah and 3,7V so there are modules 14S2P and 10S2P
So 96 parallel cells 2P
96*3,7=355,2V
355,2V * 75Ah = 26 640 Wh ~~27kWh battery pack

IanL · Jun 29, 2021

Ah, thank you.

JejuSoul · Jun 30, 2021

nware0 said:
...355,2V * 75Ah = 26 640 Wh ~~27kWh battery pack

nware0. You too have to be more careful when making rushed comments.
The nominal voltage of the 27kWh pack is 360V.
360V * 75Ah = 27kWh

From Kia Canada: Emergency Rescue Guide Manual : Soul EV

Ian's comment deserves a much simpler answer. With two identical battery cells in parallel you multiply the capacity. 37.5Ah * 2 = 75Ah.
Stringing these cell pairs together in series does not alter the capacity at all. It alters the voltage.

There is often confusion about the word capacity.
Charge Capacity in Ah - is the unit that measures the amount of charge that can be available in a fully charged battery.
Energy Capacity in kWh - is the unit that measures the energy stored in a battery.

nware0 · Jul 1, 2021

JejuSoul. I fully agree with you, just for calculation I took 3.7V cell. Yes In ours kia soul HV battery pack rated voltage is 360V but good to mention here that operation voltages are :

Cell Voltage : 2.5 ~ 4.3 V
Pack Voltage: 240 ~ 413 V

So normal Lithium-ion Polymer battery cells with normal voltages are fully charged at 4.2V while lithium high-voltage cells are allow the battery charge to higher cut-off charging voltage at 4.30V. The nominal voltage of normal-voltage cells is at 3.6-3.7V while the nominal voltage of high-voltage cells is at 3.8V. But it is just small detail among all other things.

Cells in HV battery

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