inphoenix
Active member
MontereyEV said:
That's awesome!! Congratulations. Would you mind sharing the details (numbers) of your lease?
Am I crazy for wanting to buy instead of lease?
- Thread starter MontereyEV
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That's awesome!! Congratulations. Would you mind sharing the details (numbers) of your lease?
EV2016
Well-known member
My dealer told me that I wasn't able to get the federal tax credit because I leased. I believe I read that the credit was allowed to those who purchased or leased. Does anyone know the facts on this?
Leafer
Active member
JBM71 said:
*Everyone* is right ;-)
The salesman is right, because the LESSEE does *not* get the credit; the dealer (or finance company) gets it, because they are in essence the BUYER (and LESSOR) of the EV. The LESSOR should then pass along the (entire) credit as a capital cost reduction, in effect "transferring" the credit to the LESSEE. As lessee you need to, of course, carefully check your paperwork for the proper credit (capital cost reduction) and calculations which essentially lower your total cost over the life of the lease.
For someone who is a BUYER of the EV .. you get to do the paperwork with your tax return to claim the credit. ;-)
MontereyEV
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inphoenix said:
I've now had the soul for just over 3 months and 500 miles short of 3000 miles. Have had zero problems with it and would recommend. I'm happy I went with the lease too.
My deal was for $400 a month with zero down with 12K miles per year for 36 months.
I'm looking at leasing a Soul, after leasing a Leaf for 3 years. That was the first lease I ever did, so I don't consider myself much of an expert on the subject. In that regard, I'm kind of puzzled over why I should care very much about the purchase price, acquisition cost, federal/state rebates, residual value and money factor. It seems to me that the bottom line is simply the down payment, monthly lease payment and allowable mileage. That allows me to calculate the total cost of owning the car over the life of the lease, and I think that is all that matters, right?
In my experience, the residual value isn't even that important, unless you fully intend to purchase the car at the end of the lease. In the case of my Leaf, the residual value is a ridiculous amount, given that the car has depreciated much faster than that. Nissan periodically notifies me of rebates in the neighborhood of $5k-$6k below the stated residual value to try to get me to buy my car.
So, am I missing something?
In my experience, the residual value isn't even that important, unless you fully intend to purchase the car at the end of the lease. In the case of my Leaf, the residual value is a ridiculous amount, given that the car has depreciated much faster than that. Nissan periodically notifies me of rebates in the neighborhood of $5k-$6k below the stated residual value to try to get me to buy my car.
So, am I missing something?
I bought my Soul.
First off, I'm a crazy risk taker. That being said, from what I can tell an EV will have a much longer low maintenance lifespan than a gasser. The same old rules apply in the sense that if you are going to keep a car for any length of time purchasing will always make more sense.
Recognizing that the Toyota Prius uses different battery chemistry (all-be-it a lesser chemistry), the cost of battery repair on these has come down significantly. There are now independent companies that will repair (bad cell replacement) and even greater savings. Currently Prius batteries can be completely replaced (depending on year) for between $2,000 - $4,300 (after Toyota core refund). On top of this the batteries have proven incredibly reliable so complete replacement has been rare.
There is far less to suffer from wear and tear on an EV, with brakes being the only thing next to battery. Given that regenerative braking does at least half of the braking even the brakes should last a long time. So it just comes down to the battery dragging the value down. No exhaust, compression, transmission (not much in an EV), major oil leaks (far fewer places to develop a leak also no extreme tamperature from engine heat to cause expansion contraction oil leaks).
On top of all this I have been flying electric RC planes for years using only LiPo batteries and I have seen first hand how robust these batteries are. I have also seen their cost drop precipitously from the early days of $60 for a 7.4V 1800MAH to today's cost of $10-20. I have only seen batteries fail because of user error (too rapid discharge, too rapid a charge or storing at full charge for months).
All this to say that buying for me is a calculated risk, but not as risky as others would have me believe.
BTW the cost differential between leasing and buying over a 5 year period would likely pay a good portion of any battery repair costs (by then).
First off, I'm a crazy risk taker. That being said, from what I can tell an EV will have a much longer low maintenance lifespan than a gasser. The same old rules apply in the sense that if you are going to keep a car for any length of time purchasing will always make more sense.
Recognizing that the Toyota Prius uses different battery chemistry (all-be-it a lesser chemistry), the cost of battery repair on these has come down significantly. There are now independent companies that will repair (bad cell replacement) and even greater savings. Currently Prius batteries can be completely replaced (depending on year) for between $2,000 - $4,300 (after Toyota core refund). On top of this the batteries have proven incredibly reliable so complete replacement has been rare.
There is far less to suffer from wear and tear on an EV, with brakes being the only thing next to battery. Given that regenerative braking does at least half of the braking even the brakes should last a long time. So it just comes down to the battery dragging the value down. No exhaust, compression, transmission (not much in an EV), major oil leaks (far fewer places to develop a leak also no extreme tamperature from engine heat to cause expansion contraction oil leaks).
On top of all this I have been flying electric RC planes for years using only LiPo batteries and I have seen first hand how robust these batteries are. I have also seen their cost drop precipitously from the early days of $60 for a 7.4V 1800MAH to today's cost of $10-20. I have only seen batteries fail because of user error (too rapid discharge, too rapid a charge or storing at full charge for months).
All this to say that buying for me is a calculated risk, but not as risky as others would have me believe.
BTW the cost differential between leasing and buying over a 5 year period would likely pay a good portion of any battery repair costs (by then).
I bought my Soul too. I got a great deal, and am really happy with this car.
It only makes financial sense to buy if the cost is less than the rental cost + the residual cost to buy your rental car after 3 years. We should assume that like Nissan, Kia will have to give really big discounts to shift all these lease returns. Buying a lease return (not yours) is probably the best option for a crazy risk taker. You just have to hope that the previous owner took good care of the battery.
And given that we know that there will be much better cars available in 3 years time it only makes sense to buy if you are sure that the current tech will continue to satisfy long term. Unlike a Tesla our cars will never update. I would really like the auto parking feature that will be available in the near future, but can never have it because my car lacks the required sensors.
It only makes financial sense to buy if the cost is less than the rental cost + the residual cost to buy your rental car after 3 years. We should assume that like Nissan, Kia will have to give really big discounts to shift all these lease returns. Buying a lease return (not yours) is probably the best option for a crazy risk taker. You just have to hope that the previous owner took good care of the battery.
And given that we know that there will be much better cars available in 3 years time it only makes sense to buy if you are sure that the current tech will continue to satisfy long term. Unlike a Tesla our cars will never update. I would really like the auto parking feature that will be available in the near future, but can never have it because my car lacks the required sensors.
SoulEV2016
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biffidum said:
Depend of how you drive your car ... :mrgreen:
In this spreadsheet, it's mountain hard driving result :
I would like to point out that I bought a Kia Soul EV for the environmental benefits. If I were to buy a car and move on to a newer car in three short years that requires yet another car to be manufactured to meet my needs. This has a vast impact on energy and resources. If I buy a car that will meet my needs (even factoring in battery degradation) and KEEP it for as long as possible. I am making the absolute biggest difference to the environment.
Sorry to throw this out there.
Sorry to throw this out there.
SoulEV2016
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that a problem for car makers, not from a customer view.
if car makers don't provide upgraded battery box after a couple of year (for the same car) ... it's a problem.
BMW start this at september 2016 to provide new battery box is (first buyer of) i3 for example (but it's a 55k car, :roll: ).
And it's normal, it's the beggining of electric car.
Even in electric bicycle, builder (bosch/yamaha/brose) make a BMS that you can not flash or upgrade for refurbished cells with highest capacity.
That's why i use leasing to buy electric car, i know the car maker marketing and developpment ... (but, hey, it's business ... it's not heaven).
if car makers don't provide upgraded battery box after a couple of year (for the same car) ... it's a problem.
BMW start this at september 2016 to provide new battery box is (first buyer of) i3 for example (but it's a 55k car, :roll: ).
And it's normal, it's the beggining of electric car.
Even in electric bicycle, builder (bosch/yamaha/brose) make a BMS that you can not flash or upgrade for refurbished cells with highest capacity.
That's why i use leasing to buy electric car, i know the car maker marketing and developpment ... (but, hey, it's business ... it's not heaven).
mysoulev
Well-known member
I keep hearing: you could get a used Leaf for 10k, is it for real?
has anyone here bought a used Leaf for 10k?
perhaps there was one on the other side of the continent, and i doubt it would be in better condition than the one i "bought".
it is perfectly fine to lease, and you are not crazy for wanting to buy.
has anyone here bought a used Leaf for 10k?
perhaps there was one on the other side of the continent, and i doubt it would be in better condition than the one i "bought".
it is perfectly fine to lease, and you are not crazy for wanting to buy.
Further to the discussion. We can see from past and present experience with the Prius, that third party companies see the need and step up to provide solutions. You can get bad cells diagnosed and individually replaced now.
example, not an endorsement; [http://autobeyours.com/Rebuilt%20prius%20Battery.htm]
Drawing from my own experience with battery chemistry from my model airplane hobby, I am also certain that the newer FeP chemistry which we have been replacing LiPo with steadily, will offer even more range and reliability once adopted by mass market. The format is the same and could easily be a drop-in replacement in 5-7 years.
My point is that technology is constantly changing (remember the early PC days) and those of us who like to be on the cutting edge know that innovation will happen and entrepreneurial people will offer up solutions for battery repair or upgrade. Maybe I will... so although there is more risk in buying an EV vs Leasing, I think it is a much lower level of risk than others might portray.
example, not an endorsement; [http://autobeyours.com/Rebuilt%20prius%20Battery.htm]
Drawing from my own experience with battery chemistry from my model airplane hobby, I am also certain that the newer FeP chemistry which we have been replacing LiPo with steadily, will offer even more range and reliability once adopted by mass market. The format is the same and could easily be a drop-in replacement in 5-7 years.
My point is that technology is constantly changing (remember the early PC days) and those of us who like to be on the cutting edge know that innovation will happen and entrepreneurial people will offer up solutions for battery repair or upgrade. Maybe I will... so although there is more risk in buying an EV vs Leasing, I think it is a much lower level of risk than others might portray.
The is the Soul EV forum so perhaps no one here has bought a used Leaf.mysoulev said:
To read about the problems with used Leafs check out the mynissanleaf.com website.
While the most obvious problem for owners is the low resale value,
I think the problem for buyers is worse. You don't know what you are getting.
There have been many reported cases of BMS reset.
Highly degraded cars from Arizona are sold as new in the PNW after the BMS is reset to show zero degradation.
The most famous case of that was in Olympia Wa. not too far from you.
Here is another one - http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=21597
The law needs to be changed so that a BMS reset without documentation is illegal.
The same as adjusting the odometer.
tractioninc
Well-known member
mysoulev said:
My brother bought his 2013 Leaf for $8,500 and my parents bought out their Leaf lease for about $9,000. A quick nation-wide search on AutoTrader.com just now shows about 900 used Nissan Leafs for sale for under $10,000.
The BMW i3 is starting to show up on the used market for about 40% of MSRP. I would really like to take one of those for a test drive.
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