Charging at 16A on 120V (U.S.)

[mtndrew1]

Has anyone attempted using a 16A/120V charging solution with the Soul EV? I know that Teslas, RAV4s, B-Classes and i3s can charge at this rate on a 20A 120V circuit; has anyone had success with a Soul EV yet?

Edit: By using a 120V 16A capable EVSE (OpenEVSE, JESLA, etc.); I'm aware the charge cord included with the car only goes to 12A.

 

[vanillagorilla]

Opposite question - can the included trickle charger draw fewer amps? I might trickle charge for a few weeks prior to installing an L2 but I'm concerned about flipping a breaker with the chest freezer on the same circuit.

 

[2016Electric]

Opposite question - can the included trickle charger draw fewer amps? I might trickle charge for a few weeks prior to installing an L2 but I'm concerned about flipping a breaker with the chest freezer on the same circuit.

In short, no. The charger included with the car is factory set. I imagine it could be adjusted, possibly by reprogramming (perhaps similar to reprogramming an Arduino controller), and the charger would then output a different duty cycle for the 1 kHz square wave... but why bother? Just build an OpenEVSE and save yourself the trouble. In any case...

While it's a great idea not to overload any circuit, this would be a *terrible* way to charge your car. Not only would it take forever, it would be insanely inefficient. You'd be better off (if you must) with a contractor-grade oversized gauge extension cable, plugged into the nearest dedicated outlet. Not really supposed to use extension cords for charging, but it CAN be done, if done right (hence the oversized conductors). You WILL lose some power to resistance in the cable, with more loss for a longer length of cable, but if the cord isn't warming up it shouldn't be unsafe. Watch for water/rain/trip hazard, etc. though. You'd probably be better off plugging the freezer in somewhere else (with a suitable extension cord for the freezer), and using the freezer's old socket as a dedicated outlet for your car.

I've done some testing with the L1 included in the car, along with my OpenEVSE L2 charger. I've set the OpenEVSE at various current levels and measured time to charge, and input power. Roughly, here's what I found.. Total minutes below is the total time I ran the test. As you can see, the slower the charge, the higher the number of KW "wasted" due to the overhead in the onboard charger/BMC/etc.

BTW these are handy numbers to have if you want to plan a trip and need to do dome charging at a stop on the road:

For L1 Charging @ 1.42 KW:

Percent per minute 0.0608%
Total minutes 444
Total percent added 27.0000%

Voltage 122
Amperage 12
Power KW/hr 1.464
Total W/Hr added 10833.6
Total KW/Hr added 10.8336

Projected 100% charge time in minutes 1644.444444
Projected time in hours 27.40740741
Projected W/Hr for full charge 40124.44444
Projected KW/Hr for full charge 40.12444444

Battery capacity KW/Hr 27
Battery requirement for charge 40.12444444
Wasted KW/Hr 13.12444444
Hourly KW/Hr lost to overhead and inefficiency 0.478864865


For L2 Charging @ 2.68 KW:

Percent per minute 0.1333%
Total minutes 180
Total percent added 24.0000%

Voltage 208
Amperage 12.9
Power KW/hr 2.6832
Total W/Hr added 8049.6
Total KW/Hr added 8.0496

Projected 100% charge time in minutes 750
Projected time in hours 12.5
Projected W/Hr for full charge 33540
Projected KW/Hr for full charge 33.54

Battery capacity KW/Hr 27
Battery requirement for charge 33.54
Wasted KW/Hr 6.54
Hourly KW/Hr lost to overhead and inefficiency 0.5232


For L2 Charging @ 6.12 KW:

Percent per minute 0.3167%
Total minutes 120
Total percent added 38.0000%

Voltage 208
Amperage 29.4
Power KW/hr 6.1152
Total W/Hr added 12230.4
Total KW/Hr added 12.2304

Projected 100% charge time in minutes 315.7894737
Projected time in hours 5.263157895
Projected W/Hr for full charge 32185.26316
Projected KW/Hr for full charge 32.18526316

Battery capacity KW/Hr 27
Battery requirement for charge 32.18526316
Wasted KW/Hr 5.185263158
Hourly KW/Hr lost to overhead and inefficiency 0.9852


For L2 Charging @ 7.06 KW:

Percent per minute 0.3824%
Total minutes 68
Total percent added 26.0000%

Voltage 240
Amperage 29.4
Power kw/hr 7.056
Total W/Hr added 7996.8
Total KW/Hr added 7.9968

Projected 100% charge time in minutes 261.5384615
Projected time in hours 4.358974359
Projected W/Hr for full charge 30756.92308
Projected KW/Hr for full charge 30.75692308

Battery capacity KW/Hr 27
Battery requirement for charge 30.75692308
Wasted KW/Hr 3.756923077
Hourly KW/Hr lost to overhead and inefficiency 0.861882353

 

[vanillagorilla]

Thanks, I'll just be sure to install the 220 before I get the Soul. Thanks for the help, sorry about hijacking the thread but made me think...

 

[GizmoEV]

Has anyone attempted using a 16A/120V charging solution with the Soul EV? I know that Teslas, RAV4s, B-Classes and i3s can charge at this rate on a 20A 120V circuit; has anyone had success with a Soul EV yet?

Edit: By using a 120V 16A capable EVSE (OpenEVSE, JESLA, etc.); I'm aware the charge cord included with the car only goes to 12A.

Yes, the 2016 Soul EV+ can charge at 16A on 120V. While not in the J1772 spec it will also charge at 20A on 120V so I presume it will charge all the way up to the max current the charger is programmed to use on 240V, presumably 29.5A. (note that the 2016 Soul EV appears to have a derated charger so when told to charge at 20A it only draws 18.4A. This is quite annoying. If Kia was worried about tripping breakers with the included 120V EVSE they needed to change the EVSE not the car.)

 

[slobodanc]

...

For L1 Charging @ 1.42 KW:

Percent per minute 0.0608%
Total minutes 444
Total percent added 27.0000%

Voltage 122
Amperage 12
Power KW/hr 1.464
Total W/Hr added 10833.6
Total KW/Hr added 10.8336

Projected 100% charge time in minutes 1644.444444
Projected time in hours 27.40740741
Projected W/Hr for full charge 40124.44444
Projected KW/Hr for full charge 40.12444444

Battery capacity KW/Hr 27
Battery requirement for charge 40.12444444
Wasted KW/Hr 13.12444444
Hourly KW/Hr lost to overhead and inefficiency 0.478864865

...

I am not sure I understand these numbers. So you charged 10.8 KW/Hr into battery.
444 minutes = 7.4 Hr
7.4 Hr * 1.42 KW = 10.5 KWh

So seems charger used 10.5 KWh to charge 10.8 KWh (assuming some rounding errors or some fudge factory, they are more or less the same).

So I don't see where the "13.1 KWh" waste is coming from???
Bit confused about the meaning of different numbers.

I don't understand where is this waste going into? I didn't notice my cable being hot and the box is just warm. So I don't see where is so much wasted power going into????
I mean it can only go into heat and if it is so wasteful I would certainly notice a lot of heat; would be easy to feel cable/box being very hot.

I suppose there is also components in car and battery itself. However at such a slow rate (1.4KW) electronics should not heat up much when they can handle far more current.

That being said I can see how higher voltage (240V vs 120V) is more efficient, sure. Still I wouldn't expect a huge difference in wasted energy.

 

[ralyon]

Yes, the 2016 Soul EV+ can charge at 16A on 120V. While not in the J1772 spec it will also charge at 20A on 120V so I presume it will charge all the way up to the max current the charger is programmed to use on 240V, presumably 29.5A.

I haven't seen 120V 20amp charging cable, I was curious what cable you are using for this?

(note that the 2016 Soul EV appears to have a derated charger so when told to charge at 20A it only draws 18.4A. This is quite annoying. If Kia was worried about tripping breakers with the included 120V EVSE they needed to change the EVSE not the car.)

18.4amp on a 20 amp circuit actually sounds too high. A 20amp circuit would be rated for 16amps of continues draw.

 

[2016Electric]

...

For L1 Charging @ 1.42 KW:

Percent per minute 0.0608%
Total minutes 444
Total percent added 27.0000%

Voltage 122
Amperage 12
Power KW/hr 1.464
Total W/Hr added 10833.6
Total KW/Hr added 10.8336

Projected 100% charge time in minutes 1644.444444
Projected time in hours 27.40740741
Projected W/Hr for full charge 40124.44444
Projected KW/Hr for full charge 40.12444444

Battery capacity KW/Hr 27
Battery requirement for charge 40.12444444
Wasted KW/Hr 13.12444444
Hourly KW/Hr lost to overhead and inefficiency 0.478864865

...

I am not sure I understand these numbers. So you charged 10.8 KW/Hr into battery.
444 minutes = 7.4 Hr
7.4 Hr * 1.42 KW = 10.5 KWh

So seems charger used 10.5 KWh to charge 10.8 KWh (assuming some rounding errors or some fudge factory, they are more or less the same).

So I don't see where the "13.1 KWh" waste is coming from???
Bit confused about the meaning of different numbers.

I don't understand where is this waste going into? I didn't notice my cable being hot and the box is just warm. So I don't see where is so much wasted power going into????
I mean it can only go into heat and if it is so wasteful I would certainly notice a lot of heat; would be easy to feel cable/box being very hot.

I suppose there is also components in car and battery itself. However at such a slow rate (1.4KW) electronics should not heat up much when they can handle far more current.

That being said I can see how higher voltage (240V vs 120V) is more efficient, sure. Still I wouldn't expect a huge difference in wasted energy.

The difference in numbers is rounding in excel. The additional digits after the 2 decimal places are not shown here. So yeah, rounding error.

As for the "wasted" this refers to the amount of power that is PROJECTED to be required to fully charge the car. This allows for an apples to apples comparison of differing charging efficiencies.

Where does this power go? It goes to 1) Minimum hourly electronics overhead - a certain amount of power is required all the time while the car charges to run the onboard gear, cooling system, etc. The longer you are exposed to this overhead, the worse the loss is. 2) Heat. Actually, if you open the hood after charging for a while and feel the OBC and cooling system, even at L1 charging it is quite warm. Granted, not as much heat is produced as at higher KW rates, but still quite a bit. Remember, the power also has to be stepped up quited a bit more from L1 to battery voltage... and rectified to DC.

Anyway, there's no way around it. L1 charging is FAR less efficient than full power 6.6KW at L2. This would add up to a considerable amount of waste if L1 were your sole means of charging.. and if everyone used L1 instead of L2 the combined wasted power would be staggering. Why we ever used 120v on our household grid here is a mystery to me - larger wires required and more heat..

 

[slobodanc]

Ahhh I see. Just back from vacation in Europe which is 240V so yeah, I agree on 120V being low.

I forgot the need to increase voltage so much and like you said electronics is working for much longer, so overhead waste is over a much longer period of time.

Thanks, very informative

 

[buddhaauthor]

Gosh, I feel bad about my exclusive L1 charing now.

Do I feel bad enough to spend $1500 installing L2 at my house? No. But perhaps I should get a bid. Maybe my garage wiring has sufficient amps that it would be much cheaper than that. (And I know I'll get $500 back from LA DWP and 30% from the Feds.) I guess I could do some math. Let's see, a full L1 charge wastes roughly 13KWh whereas a full L2 charge would waste only 3KWh. I pay about 15 cents per KWh. So every full L1 charge costs me $1.50 in excess of what I'd pay at L2. If I do the equivalent of a full charge twice a week, that's $3/week or $150/year, $450 over the course of my lease. So, if my installation costs less than $600 or so and I can get a charge for $550 or less, I am in the black. And of course I am a bit more empowered, so to speak.

Does that sound accurate to you all?

Franz

 

[mtndrew1]

Gosh, I feel bad about my exclusive L1 charing now.

Do I feel bad enough to spend $1500 installing L2 at my house? No. But perhaps I should get a bid. Maybe my garage wiring has sufficient amps that it would be much cheaper than that. (And I know I'll get $500 back from LA DWP and 30% from the Feds.) I guess I could do some math. Let's see, a full L1 charge wastes roughly 13KWh whereas a full L2 charge would waste only 3KWh. I pay about 15 cents per KWh. So every full L1 charge costs me $1.50 in excess of what I'd pay at L2. If I do the equivalent of a full charge twice a week, that's $3/week or $150/year, $450 over the course of my lease. So, if my installation costs less than $600 or so and I can get a charge for $550 or less, I am in the black. And of course I am a bit more empowered, so to speak.

Does that sound accurate to you all?

Franz

Well even having a NEMA 5-20 outlet installed to allow 16A 120V charging solution would be a substantial increase in efficiency with something like this:

https://store.clippercreek.com/level1/level-1-16-amp-ev-charging-station-acs-120

This solution would probably be under $500 all-in. This would allow 1.9 kW gross charging power instead of 1.44 kW with the 12A unit. Figuring a constant 250W overhead this would allow for nearly half a kilowatt of extra power to make it from the plug to the battery. This would be nearly 39% more net power if my math is correct. Could be a great bang for the buck as far as efficiency is concerned.

 

[2016Electric]

Anything up from the stock charger will increase efficiency, but don't overlook another important factor:

Being able to L2 charge at 30 amps will allow you to add over 20% per hour to top up your battery. This can come in really handy if say.. you get home but have plans to go out again in an hour or two.. can make the difference in being able to use the car in those situations. It allows for a little less planning in use of your vehicle. Also, it allows pre conditioning of the cabin in cold climates. I live in Toronto and it's nice to come out to a pre warmed car at 6am mid winter when it's -18c/0f and NOT use any extra battery warming up the car!

 

[buddhaauthor]

I'm in Los Angeles, so I could do the opposite action: pre-condition the car with the AC rather than the heater. And, yes, it's conceivable that L2 charging could add several trips to my electric travels over the years and that could save money. I had forgotten about filling up the car but needed to do a 180 mile RT over the weekend to a private home in the country. Had to take the ICE car and realized that drive cost me over $20.

 

[ralyon]

When I put in an L2 charger I am looking at adding a NEMA 14-50 outlet and getting something like the https://store.clippercreek.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=67&search=hcs-40 which will work off that outlet instead of hard wiring it directly into the breaker box. Since the 14-50 outlet is what you find for RVs, I would think I could take that charger and use it anywhere there is an RV hookup when traveling or camping. Also, if I move or have to get rid of the car, it will be easy to move the charger as well.

 

[GizmoEV]

Yes, the 2016 Soul EV+ can charge at 16A on 120V. While not in the J1772 spec it will also charge at 20A on 120V so I presume it will charge all the way up to the max current the charger is programmed to use on 240V, presumably 29.5A.

I haven't seen 120V 20amp charging cable, I was curious what cable you are using for this?

It is a modified EVSE from a Nissan Leaf.

(note that the 2016 Soul EV appears to have a derated charger so when told to charge at 20A it only draws 18.4A. This is quite annoying. If Kia was worried about tripping breakers with the included 120V EVSE they needed to change the EVSE not the car.)

18.4amp on a 20 amp circuit actually sounds too high. A 20amp circuit would be rated for 16amps of continues draw.

It is not a 20A circuit, it is the EVSE that can only indicate that 20A is available to the car but the car refuses to take the full current available. I use a 30A or larger circuit for 20A charging.

 

[SoulEV2016]

Kia Soul EV read the resistor limitation for wiring limitation.
Problem : Kia Soul EV only charge with 32A resistor ... and then, you can apply 5A with EVSE if you want.

If you make your own resistor limitation (like for 16A restriction) : the Kia Soul EV don't charge.

I have made my own EVSE charge with 1,5mm² wire limitation ... and i have made a resistor for 13A.
Kia Soul EV don't charge with this.

make the resistor for 32A ... and then, restrict the EVSE at less than 13A = OK, charging.

no problem for me, i have a breaker ... it shutdown if Kia Soul EV try to use 32A.

 

[SoulEV2016]

BONUS : Kia charger react to the button on the Type 1 plug.
flashing RED from the charger cord light on dashboard (blocked button by spider in my example).

unlocked button, work good now ...

 

[Elmil]

Kia Soul EV read the resistor limitation for wiring limitation.

I don't think this is correct. The resistor for wire limitation setting is sensed by the EVSE, not the car.. The EVSE then outputs the proper PWM signal which tells the car about the limit. The PWM signal reflects the lesser of installed current and wire capability. The resistor network located in the J1772 handle only serves as connection check between the J1772 handle and the car.

 

[SoulEV2016]

problem :

resistor is different between (i have checked the spec sheet) :
- a 16A (contact gauge 2,5mm²) type 1 plug.
- and the (same) type 1 for 32A (contact gauge 6mm²).

Nissan Leaf can use this resistor reading to limit the charger even if EVSE demand more than 16A for example.
But the Kia Soul EV don't.

But the thing is ... i can not find 16A type 1 plug in the shop, now ... all have only 32A type 1 plug (with good resistor value for Kia Soul EV).