MassDeduction
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Forgive my rookie question, but calculating the "C" rating on these battery packs, would it be based on the 60Ah, or based on the 120 or 180 Ah?JejuSoul said:
Comparing layout of the Soul EV battery with other EVs
- Thread starter JejuSoul
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Using data for the MY2020 Soul EV from Kia Motors UK : All-New Soul EV> SPECIFICATION
We see that the 64kWh Soul EV is identical to the 64kWh Kona Electric.
The current 64kWh Niro EV has the identical specs. - Kia Motors UK : e-Niro > SPECIFICATION
Soul EV 64kWh has 98 cell triplets = 294 cells : 3 * 60Ah = 180Ahr : 98 * 3.63V = 356V
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C-rate is defined as the charge / discharge current divided by the nominally rated battery capacity.
The nominally rated battery capacity of the pack is 180Ah.
A rapid charge of 64kW will have a C-rate of about 1 on such a battery pack.
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Using data for the MY2020 Soul EV from Kia Motors UK : All-New Soul EV> SPECIFICATION
We see that the 64kWh Soul EV is identical to the 64kWh Kona Electric.
The current 64kWh Niro EV has the identical specs. - Kia Motors UK : e-Niro > SPECIFICATION
Soul EV 64kWh has 98 cell triplets = 294 cells : 3 * 60Ah = 180Ahr : 98 * 3.63V = 356V
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C-rate is defined as the charge / discharge current divided by the nominally rated battery capacity.
The nominally rated battery capacity of the pack is 180Ah.
A rapid charge of 64kW will have a C-rate of about 1 on such a battery pack.
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MassDeduction
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Generally speaking for lithium ion batteries 0.25C is the ideal charge rate (any faster will increase battery degradation, any slower will provide no significant benefit). I know that some battery chemistries tolerate faster charging more than others will, but "tolerate" isn't the same as "ideal". The rule of thumb as I understand it is that the ideal C rate would be an amperage rate that's 25% of the Ah rating of the battery. So an 180 Ah pack should ideally be charged at 45a or lower, ideally. Do you know any differently than me?JejuSoul said:
Thanks for the response. I was unclear on whether the C rate should be calculated on all three sections of the pack added together, or on the 60 Ah rating of each individual section. And you're telling me that it's based on them all together, as I understand it.
Apologies for this but just scanning this thread and quickly looking st the last post (and the first), am I to believe that my 2018 30kWh Soul has an 85Ah battery and I shouldn't be charging it at any more than 0.25C , which is 21.25 amps or it will have a detrimental effect regarding battery degradation ?
As both a newbie and technical ignoramus I've had a home charger installed (Wallbox Plus, 7kW, 32a ) and I know I'm limited by the Souls ability to take in anymore than 6.6kW ac but I didn't realise limiting the amperage input would make any difference, other than more is better (as far as I, in my ignorance, was aware). I'm currently running it at 32amps but I can limit the amperage on the wallbox - Should I do this to help with long term battery health ?
cheers in advance,
Dave.
As both a newbie and technical ignoramus I've had a home charger installed (Wallbox Plus, 7kW, 32a ) and I know I'm limited by the Souls ability to take in anymore than 6.6kW ac but I didn't realise limiting the amperage input would make any difference, other than more is better (as far as I, in my ignorance, was aware). I'm currently running it at 32amps but I can limit the amperage on the wallbox - Should I do this to help with long term battery health ?
cheers in advance,
Dave.
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C-rate is defined as the charge / discharge current divided by the nominally rated battery capacity.
The nominally rated battery capacity of your pack is 80Ah.
A 32A charge will have a C-rate of about 0.4 on such a battery pack.
I don't think there is any problem with this. This is the way I charge my car every night. I have 5% degradation after 6 years.
But there are a couple of counter arguments.
1/ Kia reduced the max charging rate for the OBC from 32A to 29A in 2016. They never explained why.
2/ I used to keep data for many cars. The 2 with the least degradation always charged at 10A.
There are too many other factors that cause degradation that I think are far more important.
Don't worry about 32A charging.
C-rate is defined as the charge / discharge current divided by the nominally rated battery capacity.
The nominally rated battery capacity of your pack is 80Ah.
A 32A charge will have a C-rate of about 0.4 on such a battery pack.
I don't think there is any problem with this. This is the way I charge my car every night. I have 5% degradation after 6 years.
But there are a couple of counter arguments.
1/ Kia reduced the max charging rate for the OBC from 32A to 29A in 2016. They never explained why.
2/ I used to keep data for many cars. The 2 with the least degradation always charged at 10A.
There are too many other factors that cause degradation that I think are far more important.
Don't worry about 32A charging.
MassDeduction
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I think the literal answer is yes, but the actual answer is more nuanced.DaEV said:
The generally recommended as "safe" rate is 0.5C, and frequently charging faster than that is to be avoided if possible. As you drop below 0.5C you see less charging-related battery degradation, until you hit 0.25C at which point going slower offers no further benefit. However, it's diminishing returns the closer to 0.25C you get, prior to no additional benefit whatsoever below 0.25C.
So if it's equally convenient to you to charge at 32a and 21.25a (ie., the charging is always finished with time to spare), then make the change to 21.25a. If you are frequently barely getting it charged in time, then definitely keep charging it at 32a.
As @JejuSoul says, there are many factors that affect degradation. Charging fast is bad, but so is fast discharge (eg. driving with a lead foot). Temperature plays a role. Charging higher than necessary, or discharging very deeply, play roles as well. If you do have to charge it high, how long it sits at a high charge before use makes a big difference, as does how long it sits at a low level of charge if you drain it low.
So I agree with JejuSoul that there are many factors at play. But I disagree that that's a reason to "charge it like you stole it".
The reason to charge it as fast as possible is that you need it that fast, due to the frequency of your driving. The reason to drop down to 21.25a is if it's a best practice that you can implement without charging times becoming inconvenient. So it depends on your situation, IMO.MassDeduction
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Wikipedia indicates that the full pack size of the 2016-2019 Soul EVs is "31,8 kWh (200 x 42,36 Ah x 3,75 V)". Where do you get 80 Ah from that? I note that the usable capacity listed on Wikipedia is "30 kWh (200 x 40 Ah x 3,75 V)". Are you doubling the 40 Ah listed (presumably because there are two sections to the pack)? If so, that's education for me in a couple of ways (including that C should be calculated on net capacity rather than total capacity).JejuSoul said:
Would that mean the "27 kWh (192 x 37,5 Ah x 3,75 V)" rating of the 2016-2017 Soul EVs mean the 0.25C rating for them is 18.75a?
I understand that other factors contribute to degradation, but I have the opportunity to charge with best practices so I might as well!
EDIT TO ADD: Re-reading earlier posts in this thread, it's explicit that yes the cells are paired, which effectively does double the Ah of the pack, and that yes the 2016-2017 Soul EVs are 75 Ah useable. I had no idea you calculated C on the useable portion, rather than the total. Thanks JejuSoul!
Many thanks for the responses there, much appreciated - apologies for the delayed appreciation, I get there eventually.
I've been monitoring SOH and still showing 100%. I've also started doing longer journeys, once or twice a month following easing of lockdown restrictions. These journeys are requiring 5 x DC charges from roughly 20--30% to 80-90% each way, mostly on 50Kw chargers, although I think I managed to find a 100Kw one last time.
If I continue having to make longer journeys using DC charging will this negatively impact battery life too ?
I've been monitoring SOH and still showing 100%. I've also started doing longer journeys, once or twice a month following easing of lockdown restrictions. These journeys are requiring 5 x DC charges from roughly 20--30% to 80-90% each way, mostly on 50Kw chargers, although I think I managed to find a 100Kw one last time.
If I continue having to make longer journeys using DC charging will this negatively impact battery life too ?
Markinson
New member
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First: Here's some images and data of the Soul EV battery.
Click an image to see the bigger version.
There are details about the chemistry here - Comparing Battery Chemistries
The Soul EV has a battery by SK Innovation.
It has 192 polymer pouch type cells, lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (NMC) cathode, .... Each 40Ah battery cell has energy density of 200 Wh/kg
They are laid out in a series string of 96 sets of 2 parallel cells.
The rated capacity of the pack is 75Ah, whereas the measured total capacity is about 85Ah. Hence the rated capacity of each cell is 37.5Ah whereas actual is about 42Ah
The 2015 Soul EV battery pack is 30.5 kWh and weighs 202.8kg -> Gravimetric Energy Density = 150.4 Wh/kg
The battery cell chemistry in the Kia Soul EV is probably NCM 622. It has never been confirmed but the energy density matches what we now know is the energy density of an NMC 622 cell in the B olt EV, and this article SK Innovation rolls out advanced batteries states :
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Here's a video in Korean with a lot of detail about the structural integrity of the battery pack.
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Hi,
There's a website, which offers replacement HV Battery Packs for Kia Soul PS EV.
It says, the batteries are made by SK Innovation, but:
a) the price looks too good to be true
b) I really don't understand, how would the upgraded version with 64kWh fit into the same housing of the Soul PS EV.
c) Also... the original battery pack type in Soul PS EV is air-cooled, but this upgraded version is liquid-cooled.
This upgraded battery pack raises a lot of questions, for example:
- Is it possible to arrange new cell types into a 64kWh pack, which can physically fit in the original housing?
- How will be the new liquid-based thermal management system compatible with the original housing?
- How will the car handle the new battery capacity?
- How will be the charging managed? Completely new electronics comes with the new upgraded pack?
- What will the display show as available range left?
- How will be the displayed charging time calculated?
- And so on...
Can you please check the below links & share your thoughts about it?
https://www.jpnpartsale.com/shop/kia-soul-ev-64kwh-battery-pack-upgrade/
https://www.jpnpartsale.com/shop/kia-ev-soul-ev-battery-replacement/
Added:
I've found an article about the possibility of double range within the same space, by the water-coolant based system instead of air-cooling.
https://press.kia.com/eu/en/home/media-resouces/press-releases/2020/New_Heat_Pump_Technology.html
Gratis:
This link is mainly about the winter range drop (FYKI):
https://www.hyundaimotorgroup.com/story/CONT0000000000002995
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Hi Markinson
Thanks for posting that link. It's always interesting to see some of the stranger side of the Internet.
Firstly I am assuming this 64kWh replacement is a scam.
I will look at the detail to see if any of it could make sense but at first glance it just appears to be an AI generated fake.
The site is in Indonesia. This is not a country where Soul EVs have ever been sold.
About the 64kWh replacement :
The pictures of the battery and the schematics are all of the 27kWh original air-cooled version pack.
The specs of the battery listed however are for a 64kWh liquid cooled pack.
There is no way that this is going to fit in the original space.
About the 30kWh replacement :
This page is a bad copy of the Kia Parts website for re-manufacured packs but for twice the price.
The 64kWh replacement offered on this site is not real, but someone may be able to offer it in the future.
For example it is possible to remove the two back seats and put the battery in the back of the car.
This has been done before in Jordan. :- Upgrading high-voltage battery
This is not what the Indonesian site claims to be offering. I think they are scammers.
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Looking at some of the older pages on the Indonesian website I think we can get a sense of this company's background.
Thanks for posting that link. It's always interesting to see some of the stranger side of the Internet.
Firstly I am assuming this 64kWh replacement is a scam.
I will look at the detail to see if any of it could make sense but at first glance it just appears to be an AI generated fake.
The site is in Indonesia. This is not a country where Soul EVs have ever been sold.
About the 64kWh replacement :
The pictures of the battery and the schematics are all of the 27kWh original air-cooled version pack.
The specs of the battery listed however are for a 64kWh liquid cooled pack.
There is no way that this is going to fit in the original space.
About the 30kWh replacement :
This page is a bad copy of the Kia Parts website for re-manufacured packs but for twice the price.
The 64kWh replacement offered on this site is not real, but someone may be able to offer it in the future.
For example it is possible to remove the two back seats and put the battery in the back of the car.
This has been done before in Jordan. :- Upgrading high-voltage battery
This is not what the Indonesian site claims to be offering. I think they are scammers.
-------------------------
Looking at some of the older pages on the Indonesian website I think we can get a sense of this company's background.
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Markinson
New member
Thank you for your quick & detailed reply. Also thank you for your patience & civilised way of communicating.
My best guess was the same, as the site has the jolly joker "Refund & Return terms" copied from Aliexpress lame suppliers' pages.
(https://www.jpnpartsale.com/refund_returns/)
The pictures looked also identical, so no way the two types could looked the same way.
OK... let's forget about the 64kWh for a while, although the press link I've added later say, that Kona, eNiro & e-Soul (MK3) are running with 64kWh almost from the same size battery housing. So as you said... future can bring the water-cooled 64kWh solution to us.
Thanks anyway.
