Decreased Range?

[GeoLeoX]

I've had my 2016 Soul EV for about 3 weeks and 400 miles. I've noticed that the calculated range has gone from 105 miles to 88 miles on a 100% charge. I've only used Kia's Level 1 charger that comes with the car. Is this normal or has anyone seen this before? Any suggestions about how to regain that almost 20% loss? I am afraid to go to the dealer, they knew less about the car than I did when I bought it. I can't imagine much has changed since then.

 

[JeroenE]

The range shown is calculated using the energy used in earlier trips. If you drive (very) fast, use the heater or AC all the time, brake very hard which will have less regen then you'll use more energy than when you drive slower etcetera. Perhaps this could be a reason?

 

[GeoLeoX]

Thanks for the quick reply. I'm usually a fairly economical driver, but if the range is calculated as such it stands to reason that if I do the opposite of everything you mentioned I could improve the range calculated over time. Worth a try!

 

[JeroenE]

Two days ago, I got my second hand Soul with about 10000km on it; that's some 6000 miles. When I first got it the range said 123km (77 miles). After I drove 48km (30 miles) the range said 96km (60 miles). So I "gained" 21km (13 miles) by driving it one time. After charging it gave a new range of 138km (86 miles).

Anyway, I probably drive slower than the first owner. So my range will (hopefully) increase some more.

I'm not saying that there is nothing wrong with your battery. If you know that you are a fast driver or you live somewhere cold or hot and use the heating and AC all the time then it makes sense that your range will decrease (a bit) until it settles on a level for your driving around energy consumption. However if you don't do that then it should not decrease.

Perhaps drive around a few time slowly (like not faster than 50 mph) and see if the range increases (if only a bit). Or drive around like a madman with the AC or heating on and all the windows open and then see if the range decreases further

 

[2016Electric]

Two days ago, I got my second hand Soul with about 10000km on it; that's some 6000 miles. When I first got it the range said 123km (77 miles). After I drove 48km (30 miles) the range said 96km (60 miles). So I "gained" 21km (13 miles) by driving it one time. After charging it gave a new range of 138km (86 miles).

Anyway, I probably drive slower than the first owner. So my range will (hopefully) increase some more.

I'm not saying that there is nothing wrong with your battery. If you know that you are a fast driver or you live somewhere cold or hot and use the heating and AC all the time then it makes sense that your range will decrease (a bit) until it settles on a level for your driving around energy consumption. However if you don't do that then it should not decrease.

Perhaps drive around a few time slowly (like not faster than 50 mph) and see if the range increases (if only a bit). Or drive around like a madman with the AC or heating on and all the windows open and then see if the range decreases further

Hey - out of curiosity, why did the previous owner sell? Would you share what the resale value (approx) is like? I'm thinking of buying one of these this week. Of course, I'm concerned about eventual battery capacity loss, since I'd probably keep the vehicle for a long time. So, perhaps least g initially would be a good hedge, with the option open to buy if the vehicle ends up being as good as it seems.

 

[JeroenE]

Hey - out of curiosity, why did the previous owner sell? Would you share what the resale value (approx) is like?

I'm located in Europe, in The Netherlands. So I'm not sure if my experience will help you.

Over here the Soul EV costs about 35k euro new (including everything). There is only one model available. The only thing you can pick is the colour. So that makes it easy to compare prices Also you don't have to fret about option A or option B or perhaps option C

I bought the demo car form the car dealership. It's one year old with 10k km on the clock (about 6k miles). It was 28k euro, so about 20% off. 35k euro is $39k and 28k euro is $31k.

They usually sell their demo cars after one year so there was no specific reason the were selling this one.

I'll be driving around 40k km (25k miles) each year so I'll reach the maximum distance long before the 7 years of the guarantee run out. Even though I have "only" 6 years left

Of course, I'm concerned about eventual battery capacity loss, since I'd probably keep the vehicle for a long time.

As far as I could tell there was no battery loss yest on my car. I guess I'll never know if it'll be worse or not compared to a brand new one. I suspect It does not matter very much unless everybody who did a test drive drove it around until the battery ran out.

 

[2016Electric]

Hey - out of curiosity, why did the previous owner sell? Would you share what the resale value (approx) is like?

I'm located in Europe, in The Netherlands. So I'm not sure if my experience will help you.

Over here the Soul EV costs about 35k euro new (including everything). There is only one model available. The only thing you can pick is the colour. So that makes it easy to compare prices Also you don't have to fret about option A or option B or perhaps option C

I bought the demo car form the car dealership. It's one year old with 10k km on the clock (about 6k miles). It was 28k euro, so about 20% off. 35k euro is $39k and 28k euro is $31k.

They usually sell their demo cars after one year so there was no specific reason the were selling this one.

I'll be driving around 40k km (25k miles) each year so I'll reach the maximum distance long before the 7 years of the guarantee run out. Even though I have "only" 6 years left

Of course, I'm concerned about eventual battery capacity loss, since I'd probably keep the vehicle for a long time.

As far as I could tell there was no battery loss yest on my car. I guess I'll never know if it'll be worse or not compared to a brand new one. I suspect It does not matter very much unless everybody who did a test drive drove it around until the battery ran out.

Wow, thanks for the info.
I'm in Canada (near Toronto), so I'm familiar with our metric numbers

Our local dealer does NOT have a specific demo model, and they hardly let you drive far from their lot.. they are paranoid about putting KMs on these vehicles, I guess so they don't have to give anyone a "deal". haha
Anyway, the short drive that I did seemed pretty good, and I'm sure it's more of the same at higher speeds, just with more wind noise.

As for our models, we have the base, and the "luxury" model. The basic model has no fast charge port, and has no heat pump (just AC). I figure it's worth the extra few thousand for the better model, as our winters are quite long and cold (long time -10C and lower), and it should help with winter range. Fast charging might be nice, but at this point there are only two stations in the area, neither of which are really close to my home (so level 2 home charging it is!).

I also plan to put winter tires on it, as we get a fair amount of snow and ice from time to time.. Pretty sure steel rims and knobby winter tires won't help the range any, but I suppose that's a better outcome than not being able to stop (I heard the stock tires aren't great in the winter??)

 

[JeroenE]

I'm in Canada (near Toronto), so I'm familiar with our metric numbers

Ah, it doesn't say on your profile so I just assumed USA. I converted to US$ not Canadian$, sorry!

Our local dealer does NOT have a specific demo model, and they hardly let you drive far from their lot.. they are paranoid about putting KMs on these vehicles, I guess so they don't have to give anyone a "deal". haha

Really? I don't think they would sell any car over here if they don't allow you to drive in on your own. I know this will make you jealous and I'm not doing this on purpose, but I actually had two test drives. One was the normal one where you take the car drive a bit around and bring it back after an hour. Two weeks later, the other one was for 4 days. I got it on Saturday afternoon and had to return it Tuesday afternoon. That allowed me to check out if I could drive to family and friends and on two different days to and from work.

According to the dealer it was quite normal for people to ask for extended drives because everybody wants to know how far they can really get. The European test says 212km, but even the dealer says that is not typical everyday use. They said you should have 120 up to 160 km depending on how fast you're driving.

The dealership even have a special demo car for extended test drives which has got "advert signs" on the side etcetera. That's why I had to wait two weeks for the other test drive because it was already booked for other people.

Anyway, the short drive that I did seemed pretty good, and I'm sure it's more of the same at higher speeds, just with more wind noise.

More wind noise and more tire noise. That's about it.

As for our models, we have the base, and the "luxury" model. The basic model has no fast charge port, and has no heat pump (just AC). I figure it's worth the extra few thousand for the better model, as our winters are quite long and cold (long time -10C and lower), and it should help with winter range. Fast charging might be nice, but at this point there are only two stations in the area, neither of which are really close to my home (so level 2 home charging it is!).

You'll never know when more CHAdeMO stations are coming. Of course I don't know how it goes in Canada. Over here there are already quite a few but I'll probably stick to normal charging unless I really need the fast charging. That's mainly because I'm cheap and fast charging is about 3 to 5 times more expensive than normal charging. Still, I wouldn't want the car without it.

Our model is like the luxury model, but there are differences between it and the USA (and probably Canadian) luxury model. For example we do have heated front seats, but not cooled seats. The back seats are not heated (and not cooled either), we don't have UVO or any other app for the car. We don't get they disco light system which was almost a deal breaker for me

I'm sure I'm forgetting more differences. The main thing I'm going to miss is probably the automatic wind shield wipers. First time I got this on a car I thought it was pointless, but now I've driven in the rain wondering why the wipers wouldn't turn on until I remembered I had to do this myself.

I also plan to put winter tires on it, as we get a fair amount of snow and ice from time to time.. Pretty sure steel rims and knobby winter tires won't help the range any, but I suppose that's a better outcome than not being able to stop (I heard the stock tires aren't great in the winter??)

Our winters are mild compared to Canada. Usually I buy the same default rims as on the vehicle. Mainly because I don't like the steel tire look that much. I don't really care that much for the rims themselves, but plain steel rims just don't look right. They don't sell the rims separately over here though, so that didn't work out. I did see the Kia part website but they sell one rim for US$450 without shipping to Europe so that is a bit too much money for me. I'll probably try to find some rims that look a bit like the normal ones.

Winter tires themselves is another discussion. Some people say they are needed, others say it is a fad that isn't needed because of our mild winters. Usually they say it is recommended to have winter tires when the temperature drops below 7. It doesn't help that it can easily be -2 in the morning and +15 in the afternoon. You would need winter tires in your morning commute and normal tires in your afternoon commute...

Anyway, I'm sure I can land somewhere near 1k euro to get 4 rims with tires, TPMS sensors and everything else.

I know winter tires will decrease your range as they have more resistance than the normal tires. I probably get some Nokian tires as they see to get good test results and being made in Finland I expect they know more about cold weather than I do.

One thing to take into account is that tire noise is more important for your noise levels than in a combustion car. That engine will mask a lot of noise. So I'll try to get some tires with as less noise as possible. For now I'm leaning towards their WR D4 tires, but I have some weeks left to doubt about it

 

[2016Electric]

Hmm, so since we have very little info on battery longevity in this vehicle, for this vehicle at this point, I did some research on SK Innovation (the battery supplier for the Soul).

http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/05/f15/APR13_Energy_Storage_d_III_Adv_Battery_Dev_0.pdf

Have a look at pages 35 to 37. The battery tested is from SK Innovation, and has a Li-Ion NCM composition. They call the cell tested an "E400". I don't know how similar to this battery is to the one in the Soul (other than also being NCM); however, the testing part is the bit that caught my eye. On page 36 (top right), there is a chart showing minimal loss in capacity at 800 cycles - the cell still had capacity of 91.3% !
I followed the trend line drawn, and if the trend were to continue (and stay relatively linear), it looks like there would still be 80% capacity after 2000 cycles - this is confirmed in the conclusion on page 37.

I'm not sure if this is helpful or not, but it does suggest that at least the firm in question CAN build a relatively robust cell, which is similar to that in the Soul, and hopefully Kia uses something similar (or better!)...

Simple math suggests (not adjusting for calendar life effects and other conditions), that at 2000 cycles, one could be looking at anywhere from 200,000 to 300,000 km before reaching 80% capacity.

 

[JejuSoul]

That is an interesting find - thanks. I do not know if the E400 cell is the one used in the Soul EV.
The article states it was built at the Daejeon plant which is the earlier battery plant.
The Soul uses batteries from Seosan. I suspect they are more up-to-date.

Location 	  Daejeon R&D Center 	    Seosan Plant    Seosan Plant II
Completion 	May 2010 	              March 2012      June 2015
Capacity 	  100MWh 	                200MWh          300MWh
# of EVs	   5,000 	                 10,000          15,000

If you look here http://www.skbattery.co.kr/how/cell_performance.aspx you can see similar performance data for the SK Energy Cell as of 2Q 2012.
The Soul EV battery has a greater energy density at over 200 Wh/kg.

 

[2016Electric]

That's great - so we should expect higher performance given the newer cell design. Hopefully the increased energy density wasn't the only thing that went up, and that cycle life either stayed the same or improved too.

With those numbers, if they applied to the cells used in this vehicle, I doubt many people would ever need to replace the pack (depending on year - aging as well).

I wish we had the engineering specs on the battery in this model. I called Kia but they won't give me the info. They just advise that the battery is covered by the warranty, and implied the warranty wouldn't be for as long if they didn't feel the battery design is solid (covered 70% after 8 yrs or 160000km in Canada).

 

[JejuSoul]

Hmm, so since we have very little info on battery longevity in this vehicle, for this vehicle at this point, I did some research on SK Innovation (the battery supplier for the Soul).
http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/05/f15/APR13_Energy_Storage_d_III_Adv_Battery_Dev_0.pdf
The battery tested is from SK Innovation, and has a Li-Ion NCM composition. They call the cell tested an "E400".... there is a chart showing minimal loss in capacity at 800 cycles - the cell still had capacity of 91.3% !

I had another look to see if I could find updated data for that test.
Found this 2013 U.S. DRIVE Highlights of Technical Accomplishments Report
On page 32 I found the same test data, 800 cycles - capacity of 91.3% .
Hence it seems the E400 cell tested here does have an energy density of 200Wh/kg and probably is the same battery as used in the Soul EV.

 

[2016Electric]

Hmm, so since we have very little info on battery longevity in this vehicle, for this vehicle at this point, I did some research on SK Innovation (the battery supplier for the Soul).
http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/05/f15/APR13_Energy_Storage_d_III_Adv_Battery_Dev_0.pdf
The battery tested is from SK Innovation, and has a Li-Ion NCM composition. They call the cell tested an "E400".... there is a chart showing minimal loss in capacity at 800 cycles - the cell still had capacity of 91.3% !

I had another look to see if I could find updated data for that test.
Found this 2013 U.S. DRIVE Highlights of Technical Accomplishments Report
On page 32 I found the same test data, 800 cycles - capacity of 91.3% .
Hence it seems the E400 cell tested here does have an energy density of 200Wh/kg and probably is the same battery as used in the Soul EV.

Good morning,

Yeah, that cell, or something like it.
That's not really too bad. I believe they were doing 80% DOD cycles.
So, assuming you charged to 100% and discharged to 20% 800 times:
- Assume 150km range (although I have been getting more like 165-180)
- 150 x 0.8 = 120 x 800 = 96,000 km

Not bad.. 96,000 km (at a minimum) and still over 90% capacity. I really hope this turns out to be true... But then, that's why I leased. If it doesn't, then I don't have to keep it. I hope to have a good idea of how the Soul is holding up by 4 yrs and 80,000 km.. I do really enjoy driving this vehicle though.. I don't want to drive ICE anymore