Thinking of getting a higher mileage 2016

[JejuSoul]

-
Just to clear up some confusion about what is being shown on the OBD apps.

SOH is State of Health % of the usable capacity. There is a part of the battery that the BMS does not allow you to use.
Part of this buffer will be lost before any of the usable capacity. That is why the State of Health % may be shown as greater than 100%.

SOC is State of Charge % of the battery in its current state. A brand new 2016 battery will show 100% when there is 27kWh in it.

There is no known way to get the number of times you have charged the car using L1 or L2. Similarly we don't have a way to count the number of times you have fast charged. This is available in L eafSpy for the Nissan L eaf but not for the Soul EV.

Battery cycles can be estimated by dividing the Cumulative Energy Charged counter by the size of the battery. Note this value includes regenerative charging.

 

[beanman]

OK, Thanks all for the help, clarifications, and advise thus far.

Now hope someone can help me decide whether or not to buy this particular soul ev based on some of these findings.

So the battery was just about completely drained, and the dealer didn't have a cable yet to charge it, he got one yesterday and it's already about 50%+ charged showing ~57km of range available.

I noticed immediately that the ambient internal temperature sensor must be messed up. It shows -14 degrees Celsius when I powered up and kept slowly went to -18 according to the SOULEVSPY software and what I saw on the dashboard.

Some of what I believe the pertinent stats are (happy to send the whole .csv file)... can't seem to get it to "replay" on my app yet.
(these stats were all taken before the dealer got the cable and started charging later in the day)

ELM327.Voltage_V
10.2
car.odo_km car.ambient_C
142331.7 -14

ldc.out_DC_V
11.2

ldc.out_DC_A
0

ldc.temperature_C
9

battery.SOC_pct battery.SOC_decimal_pct
2.5 2.9

battery.DC_V battery.DC_current_A
321.2 0.1

battery.accumulative_operating_time_s
6767845

battery.accumulative_charge_power_kWh battery.accumulative_discharge_power_kWh
7974.4 7551.8

battery.inlet_temperature_C battery.min_temperature_C battery.max_temperature_C battery.module_temperature1_C battery.module_temperature2_C battery.module_temperature3_C battery.module_temperature4_C battery.module_temperature5_C battery.module_temperature6_C battery.module_temperature7_C battery.module_temperature8_C
9 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 (and this goes on)

battery.auxiliaryVoltage_V
11.2

battery.accumulative_charge_current_Ah battery.accumulative_discharge_current_Ah
21347.5 21216.9

battery.available_charge_power_kW battery.available_discharge_power_kW
90 16.43

battery.cell_voltage0_V battery.cell_voltage1_V battery.cell_voltage2_V battery.cell_voltage3_V battery.cell_voltage4_V battery.cell_voltage5_V battery.cell_voltage6_V battery.cell_voltage7_V battery.cell_voltage8_V
3.34 3.28 3.26 3.24 3.3 3.34 3.38 3.38 3.32 (and it goes on between 3.2 and 3.34 for most cells)

battery.max_cell_detoriation_pct
31.2
battery.max_cell_voltage_V
3.4
battery.max_cell_voltage_n
43

battery.min_cell_detoriation_n
43
battery.min_cell_detoriation_pct
17.2
battery.min_cell_voltage_V
3.2
battery.min_cell_voltage_n
86

calc.battery_SOH_pct
85.8

Tire Pressure gauges appeared all 0

So, should I buy this car? 85.8% SOH, cell voltages as above, not sure what to make of the max/min cell voltages and detoriations

Really appreciate any feedback and additional interpretation!

Thank you.

 

[warren55]

I am hardly an expert in these matters, but here's my take:
The degradation seems pretty acceptable considering the mileage, but you are looking at some significant degradation. Is it really cheap?
Because it is going to need a new battery pack at some point and you'll be paying for it, not Kia.
No one seems to know what a battery pack costs yet, but estimates seem very high compared to a Nissan Leaf.

 

[beanman]

I actually feel the same way.
Still checking out a few things, like how it will read when fully recharged, that ambient sensor issue, etc.., my own mechanic will check the brakes/wheels/tires....... maybe I should find a list of non-electric motor parts that should be checked...

But yes, it's cheap and otherwise in good condition with no body damage, etc...

At 20km per day or 6000km / yr, and even 2% degradation per 10,000km, I could likely get years out of it before needing to replace the battery.

I was thinking replacement cost would be similar to the Leaf's so thanks for reminding me that it could be double!

One day I hope they could change out the pack/cells like the leaf360 project.

Just to restate it's one of the 2016 Teo cabs from Montreal that went under and sold #s of leafs/souls evs/teslas at auction in Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, etc....

 

[warren55]

20km per day is pretty similar to what my commune is, about 15 miles. Even in cold weather it should be good for a couple days commute, so if that works for you, it could be a bargain commuter for many years. Just don't take a lot of side trips on the way home!

 

[JejuSoul]

-
I agree that this car will be okay for a 20 km commute for many years to come.

The battery warranty ends at 160,000km in Canada. It looks like you will miss that deadline.
The cost of replacing the pack is probably not worth it, if you have to pay for it yourself.

I would guess that this car would have an actual range of 110km in summer and 70km in winter.
But to make it last for a long time you want to use the middle of range.
Keep the state of charge between 20% and 80%.

------------------------------
Edit: I corrected the warranty from 150,000km to 160,000km

 

[notfred]

I'm going to agree with the rest, as long as it is cheap and given that you have such a short usage commute then it could be well worth your while. When it comes down to it, a 2016 Soul EV is still a nice place to sit in during the commute!

One thing to add to the list of things they need to fix - they need to replace the 12V battery. It was sitting at 11.2V with only 10.2V seen at the OBDII adaptor. They will probably just want to get away with charging it up, but that battery has now been deep discharged and will die shortly. It does seem that a lot of the cars have the 12V battery from the factory die after about 3 years - mine did as well. I replaced it with a standard one from Total Battery.

 

[ksoul2084]

Hi all, first post.

I just purchased one of these ex-taxi 2016 Soul EV+ models on a copart auction out of Toronto myself. It seemed like a reasonable deal for the $ but I'm certainly taking a leap on this since I have no concrete data on the mileage or SOC, etc. for my car (wasn't provided in the auction details and the car is being shipped so don't have it yet). So this information is very helpful and pretty much matches my rough expectations. There was another 2016 on auction with documented 103,000KMs so actual mileage could vary a bit.

From what I've read your strange temp readings, etc. *could* be related to the low 12v battery. Seems like a lot of the car's systems get wonky when 12v is low. I would definitely plan on replacing it.

Another point of clarification is my understanding is that in Canada the electric drivetrain components, including the battery, are covered under warranty for 96 months or 160,000KM. So with your mileage expectations you should have a couple of years anyway before you pass that mark and go off warranty. I didn't see anything in the warranty excluding commercial use, taxis, etc. either.

One note of caution from what I've read is that it seems like once the battery pack degrades past a certain point (probably not much below 70%) it tends to "fall off a cliff" and will end up failing in a way to make the car unusable. So don't expect to leverage graceful degradation for too long.

Once I receive my car I will post the details here for interest's sake.

 

[beanman]

Hi all,

The plot thickens. I had a chance to take another reading from the car an hour ago.
Was planning on taking it to my mechanic tomorrow to check out all the non-ev stuff.

So I'm hoping the 12V battery is just messed because now (after the dealer charged the ev battery to 99%) it's still showing 67km range, same as he told me range was at at roughly 50% charge.

soulspy shows the actual percentage charge to be about 67% but also that the display charge (as on the dashboard) at 99%

Good news is that the cell voltages are now about 4V each instead of 3.2V

Here's the current readings on top, prior reading (prior to charging) under

range.estimate_km
66
0

battery.SOC_display_pct
99
1

battery.SOC_pct
94.5
2.5

battery.SOC_precise_pct
66.34765625
0.14453125
(How should this relate to battery.SOC_display or battery.SOC)

battery.DC_V / battery.DC_current_A
394.7 / 7.3
321.1 / 0.1

battery.accumulative_charge_power_kWh
8002.2
7974.4
(This shows it has been charged 27.8Kwh from empty)

battery.auxiliaryVoltage_V
14.3
11.1

battery.available_charge_power_kW / battery.available_discharge_power_kW
51.42 / 90
90 / 16.43

battery.max_cell_voltage_V / battery.max_cell_voltage_n
4.12 / 1
3.4 / 43

battery.min_cell_detoriation_pct
17.2
17.2

battery.max_cell_detoriation_pct
31.2
31.2

battery.DC_V / battery.DC_current_A
394.7 / 7.3
321.1 / 0.1

So I'm attaching the csv file in hopes someone can decipher some more tidbits and send back info.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kUq2JGTx3DlijPs1jwEVLT1oen91cTLlqYVMw1ldu9I/edit?usp=sharing

I'm thinking this from the SoulSpy Thread:

In my experience, the BMS only adjusts the SOH value when the car has been charged to near full capacity, and is driven to near empty ( < 20% SOC). Depending on how long ago this last happened, and what the battery experienced in the meantime (high temperature, high power driving, or extensive time at high SOC), the adjustment may be large or small.

Thank you in advance

 

[JejuSoul]

..One note of caution from what I've read is that it seems like once the battery pack degrades past a certain point (probably not much below 70%) it tends to "fall off a cliff" and will end up failing in a way to make the car unusable. So don't expect to leverage graceful degradation for too long.

No. I don't agree. I have 2011 Hyundai BlueOn with a very seriously degraded battery pack.
If I drove it hard and fast then yes it may "fall off a cliff".
But I drive it very gently. I have a 10 km commute that I drive at a steady 50km/h.
Technically it is a 50km/h limit and there are plenty of 50km/h speed cameras, so I'm not breaking any rules.
But yes, I am the slowest car on the road!
So far I have not noticed any deterioration since I bought it 3 months ago.

Having this car though does help me understand why many cars will "fall off a cliff". Many drivers will 'push' their car harder as it degrades in order to achieve the same performance as when it was new. This will degrade the battery ever more quickly. I will write a lengthy post to explain this on the battery ageing model thread.


-------------------------------------------------

beanman. Don't worry about battery.SOC_precise_pct. That is not a correct value. I have already complained to the author of soulspy that keeping a bogus PID displayed will just confuse users.

I agree that the 12V battery will probably need replacing.

A true test of this car is to drive it. That is more important than any numbers that our apps can display.

 

[beanman]

Thanks everyone for your support.

My mechanic was not impressed with the wear and tear, an obvious collision/bondo repair on the rear fender (not reported on the carfax), some door seal gasket issues. Wanted me to walk away and not take on a project.

My main concern however was that the car was still showing ~60km range on a full battery after being fully charged and about 25km driving. Except I know there's more in the battery, I drove 25KM and the range available only went down ~6km.

But I told the dealer unless that was driven around for a couple of days and resets to show about 120km range on a full charge, I couldn't offer him what we agreed and instead offered him about $1500 less. He was insulted and essentially kicked me out.

My mechanic was happy, I am not. I was willing to take on a minor project but needed assurances about the range. Even drove it to my local Kia dealership who unfortunately told me that their service centre did not have the appropriate EV equipment to diagnose the car. But said they'd be happy to do an oil change if I wanted

So maybe I need to understand more about how long after being completely discarged and then fully recharged, does it take for the BMS range to approximate real range again. I don't think I'll have another chance for that particular car.

So beware everyone to check both the SOH AND the range, and put some thought into why the two might not be adding up!

Oh, and the 12V battery issues seemed to go away. No longer showing 11V but 14V. Mechanic said the battery looked only about a year old.
The "ambient" temperature sensor climbed down to -28degrees and that is a datapoint for the HVAC in the car as well. My mechanic was thinking the reading was not "ambient" but external temperature, and found the sensor at the front-left side of the "grill". Maybe damaged as a result of the taxi modifications or potential collision.

His only other note was that all these cabs obviously had a lot of modification to add the taxi signage and computer/tablet systems. He's not sure how well it was done. the front USB and AUX ports of all the cabs have been removed/disabled. (You'll also find a taxi control unit in the glovebox, and in the back area spare wheelwell area next to the battery fan blower.)

 

[JejuSoul]

-
Yes, it does seem that buying this used taxi would be problematic for many other reasons than just the battery.

That the car is displaying 60km on a full charge is not a good sign.
It may mean the BMS is calibrated too low, because the car has been left on low charge and unused for a long time.
On the other hand it may mean the SOH is actually much worse than the 85% shown.

The best way to check this is to charge to 100%, drive the car as far as it will go, and then charge it back up to 100%
From the Battery University Page about Calibration.
For a calibration to occur this needs to happen.

The battery warranty in Canada for 2016 models is 8 years, 160,000km to 70% SOH as you state.
See - http://www.kia.ca/content/Owners/warranty/2016_Kia_Warranty_Manual_en.pdf.

Note the EV system warranty covers all the major EV systems including the High Voltage battery for failure.
There is also a battery capacity warranty. It is this that has the 70% limit.
These two sections have the same time and mileage limits in Canada.

The Korean warranty is 10 years, 160,000km to 70% SOH.
The United States is 10 years, 100,000 miles to 70% SOH.
The Canadian warranty is 8 years, 160,000km to 70% SOH
Europe is 7 years, 150,000km to 70% SOH.

 

[beanman]

I've got a Kia Soul EV now for the rest of the long weekend.
I've looked at about 7 of these now, all from an auction selling the assets of a now defunt montreal ev taxi cab company.

This one's a 2016 with only 119,000kms on it. I have 2 days to figure out if the battery and ev system is in good health, and consider the wear and tear and modified electrical system has only disabled the front usb/aux ports (like all the other cabs) and apparently the AM and Sirus antenna.

The BMS has been reset so there's only one full charge on the accumulated KWh counter, and shows a SOH of 110%

Appreciate any advice and wish me luck! As soon as the kids go down I'll be tinkering.

Unfortunately the soulspy I have is not populating the cell map and the tire pressures all read 0psi. Perhaps this was as a result of a modification.

At least this one's ambient temperature gauge appears to be working!

 

[warren55]

I would take it on a reasonably long drive from 100% charge and try to get it down to at least 20% before you recharge. Log the mileage you travel against what the GOM says, and it you can measure how many kWh it takes to charge back to full.

 

[RickinSD]

It's always cheaper in the long run to buy a car that is in good shape rather than try to fix up someone else's mess.

 

[beanman]

Can anyone else who picked up one of these taxis report !ack on whether they get am radio reception, XM reporting the antenna is disconnected, aux is always connected, and the gps system is about 1+ km off where you actually are.

I'm compiling a list of mods to try to help anyone looking at these cars, and converting back to 'civilian' use.

I didn't check the last car's AM/XM status, I thought the antennas were connected though.

Thank you

 

[rscamp]

Can anyone else who picked up one of these taxis report !ack on whether they get am radio reception, XM reporting the antenna is disconnected, aux is always connected, and the gps system is about 1+ km off where you actually are.

I'm compiling a list of mods to try to help anyone looking at these cars, and converting back to 'civilian' use.

I didn't check the last car's AM/XM status, I thought the antennas were connected though.

Thank you

That would be helpful. Thanks!

I didn't think to check AM radio or front USB ports a while back. FWIW, so far my list includes missing tire repair kit, missing L1 charger, missing key fob, missing cargo shelf/net (Luxury), winter tires rather than low rolling resistance tires. Then there is the more obvious - taxi equipment on dash, and in wheel well where the tire repair kit goes and on rear window (appears to be an indicator of taxi for hire or in use). SD card for Nav is also likely to be missing if I had thought to check.

 

[beanman]

So I guess my final update before I meet with my mechanic in the morning to look at the wear and non-ev things and then go to return the car and likely make an offer.

I fully charged it overnight @ 110V to 100% then drove most of the day with the whole family in the car on a mix or roads and highways. Got the battery down only to 39.5% SOC (sorry couldn't drive enough today to get it to 20%)

Started the morning at 100% with estimated range of 125km
at noon, showing 99km range after 22km driven (total est range + actual driving since full charge = 121km)
mid afternoon 95km range after 38km driven (total est range + actual driving = 133km)
early evening 77km range after 59km driven (total est range + actual driving = 136km)

Finished the day (did a bunch of highway driving between 90-115KM/h)
showing 47 km range after 94km driven w/39.5% SOC (total est range + actual driving = 141km total potential range)

SoulSpy reports the SOH still at 110%
Now charging overnight again @ 110V (says about 13 hours to full, but will only do about 9.5 hours)

Battery accumulative charge kWh is at 52.4 (about one full 27kWh charge more than when I picked it up)

battery max cell deterioration pct = 0
battery min cell deterioration pct = 0

Is it possible this car got a new battery before being auctioned off? The battery cell map looks nice and even all across (Voltage and temps)

One last note about the condition of this former taxi: My wife and I both noticed this morning on the first drive out that the shocks/struts were rough. We went down one particular bad street in the area and felt every single hard pot hole or bump. It got much better through the day but it might be a comment emphasizing how hard some of these have been run.

Would like to come up with an approximate cost to reconnect the wires for AM/GPS/SIRIUS antennas, I'm guessing $500 for a stereo installer to open up the roof panel and clean up all other remaining tax electronics out. Maybe even get the a front USB & AUX terminals back.

NB: There's also been a power cable added to the front console under the arm rest in the storage compartment. I've seen a couple of taxis with this. A hole's been drilled into the bottom and you can pull the cable to feel something the weight of a transformer is below the console. My bet it was for the POS terminal or similar that was stored in the compartment. Likely wired to the old front USB 5V port that is no longer there.

 

[notfred]

While it is possible it got a new battery, I suspect it just had the BMS update done on it. The only way to know would be to take the VIN and give Kia a call and see what its history is.

Rather than looking at the remaining range, I would look at it as you used 60.5% of the battery charge to get 94km which gives you a total estimated range of 155km - which is right where the car should be with a new battery pack. With even battery voltages I guess this may actually be a new battery pack after all!

 

[ksoul2084]

That range test certainly sounds promising.

My auction taxi Soul has arrived in town. I haven't seen it yet. They couldn't get it running at the transport company so needed to forklift it onto/off the truck. I'm hoping it's a 12v battery issue or maybe a keyfob battery issue and they just didn't know what to do but will find out soon enough.