What to watch out for? (Besides Battery Health)

[mammlouk]

I am looking at purchasing a 2015 Soul EV with ~44000 miles on it. The non-kia dealer that's selling it had a buyer return it for battery issues. They've got it at the local dealership waiting for a new battery under warranty. Due to it already causing them problems they've reduced the price to ~$9k. If I buy it now knowing that it's sitting at the dealership waiting on the new battery they'll give me another $1000 off. My idea, not theirs. So my main question is if there's anything else specific I need to think about/look at on these vehicles? I'm not too worried that they're going to try and pull anything over on me since they took the car back from the previous buyer when they found out about the battery problems. I also know well enough to get any agreements in writing.

Thanks for any tips!

 

[notfred]

The On Board Charger (OBC) sometimes needs replacement, but if it is at the dealer for a new battery then they should be doing all the recalls and that includes doing a firmware update to the OBC and checking it is working properly.

I would get a mechanic to have a look at the brakes. With the regenerative braking they don't wear out as quickly as usual and so can rust up. They should be cleaned and lubricated regularly.

Apart from that then I think you have a bargain. With a new battery in, the powertrain should be just like new. Just take a look at what state the interior and paint are in and go for it.

 

[mammlouk]

@notfred - Thanks for the quick reply. You've confirmed my thoughts. I figured I ought to solicit input from a group of people more familiar with the car than I am. I haven't actually gone to see the vehicle yet because it's about an hour and a half away from me. The pictures show the paint and interior to be in great condition. I'm waiting for the sales rep to get me a maintenance report from when they added it to their sales stock. I'm expecting that they would have checked the brakes to prevent liability issues. I'm also going to contact the Kia dealership that is doing the battery replacement and see if they'll provide me an inspection for a reasonable price since it's already there. I'm hoping I can convince them to transport it down to my local dealership after the warranty work is done since they are part of the same dealer group. It would be nice to avoid putting my whole family through a 3 hour round trip drive just to pick it up.

 

[mammlouk]

I have a quick follow up before I pull the trigger on this and start signing paperwork over the next couple of days.

The car was originally a California car and as such does not have the heat pump for managing the battery temperature. I am in Colorado and the car will live it's life outside. I'm buying the car primarily for my daily commute which is 18-20 miles each way (35-40 round trip) depending on the route I take. It's about 80% highway at 65MPH. There are no charging options at my workplace. I believe that I should be fine, even in cold winter weather, given that my daily commute is less than 50% of the rated range of the vehicle.

Do you know of anyone having poor experiences in similar conditions that i should be concerned about? I will definitely take advantage of pre-heating while plugged on cold mornings. Does the power draw for pre-heating require a Level 2 charger to prevent running down the battery pack or will the Level 1 cable from the factory be sufficient?

Thanks for all the help.

 

[JejuSoul]

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If the winter temperatures where you live are below -26C then I would avoid this car.
This seems unlikely in Colorado, but maybe you live on a high mountain.
Reason - California cars do not have a battery heater, which is needed for extreme cold.

I don't have a battery heater and will never need one because the temperatures here never get that cold.
I do have the heat pump, heated seats and heated steering wheel. All are nice to have but are not essential.

... Does the power draw for pre-heating require a Level 2 ch arger to prevent running down the battery pack or will the Level 1 cable from the factory be sufficient?

You are going to have to work this out on your car, in your climate.
In my case I have a heat pump and winter temperatures are mild. I use a Level 2 ch arger and have never had a problem.
There are threads on this forum discussing power draw for pre-heating but from a few years back.

 

[mammlouk]

If the winter temperatures where you live are below -26C then I would avoid this car.
This seems unlikely in Colorado, but maybe you live on a high mountain.
Reason - California cars do not have a battery heater, which is needed for extreme cold.

I'm not up on a mountain. A quick google search tells me our average winter temperatures for the coldest month are in January with avg high of 41F/5C and avg low of 17F/-8C. I have seen temperatures drops to around -5F/-20C on a rare occassion. The car is small enough that I could probably move some stuff around and put it in the garage in an emergency. Would one or two days out in really low temperatures (-20C) cause problems with the battery longevity, or is it just that it's a range problem if you need to drive when it's that cold.

... Does the power draw for pre-heating require a Level 2 charger to prevent running down the battery pack or will the Level 1 cable from the factory be sufficient?

You are going to have to work this out on your car, in your climate.
In my case I have a heat pump and winter temperatures are mild. I use a Level 2 charger and have never had a problem.
There are threads on this forum discussing power draw for pre-heating but from a few years back.

Thanks! I did a search and found the info. It looks like at least the initial draw for pre-heating is more than the level one can handle, so I guess I'll have to wait and see how it goes for me.

 

[ksoul2084]

I've been tracking my range, etc. with my 2016 former Teo Taxi cab here in Calgary. My car does have the battery heater and heat pump, and I do charge at home (and the office) with the 120v Type I charger.

So last week it was brutally cold with daytime temps around -30c and -40c windchills. In my garage (unheated, but attached) it was usually -10c.

I would preheat the car for 30mins (battery pack and interior) via the timer while plugged in to 120v in my garage before heading out each morning, and because my battery is degraded I would also charge at work via the 120v plugins in the outdoor parking lot during the day and preheat the car again prior to driving home.

With the extremely cold temps I was kind of expecting the car to shutdown halfway home like a 3 year old iPhone in the cold weather, but it actually did quite well.

My "normal" range with say 0c temps following the same usage pattern is approx. 70 - 75kms so long as I keep my highway speed around 110km/h or lower. In the extreme cold it dropped to approx. 50-60 kms, and I also dropped my speed to 105km/h. Still plenty to get me one way to/from work (approx. 37kms each way).

I did experience the "Turtle of Doom" indicator (along with "Power Limited") a couple of times when I had cruise control set and the car was pulling up a hill and the car would slow to 97km/h for a few minutes and then recover. So clearly the battery heater wasn't able to keep the pack warm enough for heavy usage at these temps.

The other thing I noticed is that it was difficult to keep comfortably warm and keep the windows clear using the "Driver Only" setting on the climate controls. I had to disable that when driving down the highway or my windows would start to freeze up. At one point I noticed the Power Consumption meter for climate was well above 5kWh!

I was really surprised by how well the 120v charger worked outdoors in -30C weather though. I left it plugged in all day and then had it pre-heat for 30mins before I left for home. On a "normal" day, say 10c outside, it will charge at an effective rate of approx. 5.5kWh per hour. In the extreme cold I was still able to average approx. 3kWh per hour. From what I had read about 120v chargers in cold weather I expected almost nil but was thrilled with the real results.

One thing I did not try was to run the car without preheating it (plugged in). I suspect that it would take a long time for the battery to warm up enough to provide adequate power for highway driving and at a large cost to your overall range.

So having said all that, I think you'd be better off with a model that has a heat pump and a battery heater. Alternatively, if you had another ICE vehicle you could use for your commute on the few very cold days each year that would probably work too.

 

[ksoul2084]

I was really surprised by how well the 120v charger worked outdoors in -30C weather though. I left it plugged in all day and then had it pre-heat for 30mins before I left for home. On a "normal" day, say 10c outside, it will charge at an effective rate of approx. 5.5kWh per hour. In the extreme cold I was still able to average approx. 3kWh per hour. From what I had read about 120v chargers in cold weather I expected almost nil but was thrilled with the real results.

Whoops. I just realized that I misrepresented this. So what I observed when charging with 120v in cold weather (-30c) was that my battery would gain approx. 3% charge every hour (not the 3kWh of charge I mentioned above).

Some quick math to determine how much actual kWh are being added by the charger in cold weather:

The charger increased my battery charge percentage by 15% over 5 hours of charging (from 57% to 72%):
15% / 5hrs = 3% per hour

My battery pack SOH (State of Health) is currently 66.2%.
27kWh (new full battery capacity) * 0.662 (SOH) = 17.9 kWh (max current battery capacity)

(17.9 kWh / 100) * 3 (%) = 0.54 kWh per hour approx. charge rate

So over 5 hours I was able to charge 2.7kWh, 8 hours would be 4.32 kWh, or approx. 24% of the total current battery capacity, even in -30c weather.

 

[ksoul2084]

One thing I did not try was to run the car without preheating it (plugged in). I suspect that it would take a long time for the battery to warm up enough to provide adequate power for highway driving and at a large cost to your overall range.

So just this morning I messed up and only charged the car to 80% overnight, and didn't pre-warm it before commuting to work. It was in my garage so temp. when I left for work was approx. 5c, with outside temps of -2c.

GOM stated 48kms range with 80% charge.
I intentionally slowed down on the hwy to 105km/h once I saw the GOM range dropping quickly at 110km/h.

Completed my trip of 35kms distance, avg speed of 62 km/h, with 11 kms left on the GOM. The actually efficiency though was pretty decent at 18.7 kWh per 100 kms. I didn't see any indication that the battery heater was even on.

My strongest take-away from driving in cold weather is that speed is the largest factor in determining range. Anything up to 100-105km/h is efficient and anything over quickly becomes a problem.

 

[mammlouk]

Thanks for all the detailed information. I do have another vehicle I could use if it was absolutely the only option, but I don't know if I want to rely on that. I can re-arrange the garage during the winter for really cold nights if it becomes a problem, but I can't do anything about parking outside for 8 hours in the cold at work. 100-105km/h speed limiting isn't a big deal for me. The limit on my commute is 65 mph and I'm old enough these days to not care about people trying to rush me or wanting to pass.

I just haven't seen any good enough deals on a model with heater in my area to meet my needs. This one at $8000 fits in the right value category since it would pay for itself in gas savings compared to my current vehicle within 3-4 years. This would still leave me with some time on the warranty for another battery replacement (if degradation is a continued problem) to save up extra towards whatever is next.

I'm not completely opposed to installing a Level 2 charger in order to provide the necessary power for pre-heating without killing my range if that would get me through the winter on a model without the battery heater. I've done enough of my own electrical work that I am comfortable adding the new 240V circuit myself.

You guys are definitely making me re-consider moving forward with this purchase. It's only worth the savings if I don't end up turtling(not a word) home from work all winter, and I don't get quick battery degradation that leaves me constantly working with the dealership.

 

[ksoul2084]

A 240v charger will probably be necessary at home since it will take too long to fully recharge using 120v overnight with a fresh battery with the full 27kWh capacity.

I think you'll be fine on all but the coldest days. Maybe there is a public charger near your office or halfway home on your commute that you could bail to for a quick boost if range ever becomes an issue on very cold days?

 

[mammlouk]

A 240v charger will probably be necessary at home since it will take too long to fully recharge using 120v overnight with a fresh battery with the full 27kWh capacity.

I was figuring with the length of my commute I could stay in the 30% > 80% charge parameters most of the year. You are probably right for when it's cold though, especially if I want to preheat in the morning.

I think you'll be fine on all but the coldest days. Maybe there is a public charger near your office or halfway home on your commute that you could bail to for a quick boost if range ever becomes an issue on very cold days?

That's the thing. I work outside of the city and there are no chargers between home and work for me. There is 1 charger that could sort of be considered as being on my way home. It's 16 miles from my work and 4.5 miles from home. If I'm cutting it that close on my commute then this car might be a bad investment. :lol: I wonder if I can convince the dealership to put in the battery pack and BCM with heater. I mean since they're replacing it anyway... I spoke with the dealership doing the warranty work yesterday and they said they've go absolutely no ETA on the battery coming in, but they're hoping within 3 months. :lol: Online KIA parts sites show the cost to be equivalent between the parts. You would think it would save KIA money to replace with the heated option now that the car has moved to a colder climate versus gambling on whether the non-heated pack would fail again within the next 5 years.

 

[mammlouk]

Well it's been a little bit, so I suppose I should post an update. I decided to move forward with the purchase. Hopefully I don't regret it later.

I got a call today saying that my EV Battery has been replaced. I'm just waiting for the KIA dealership to complete the inspection I requested as a sanity check before closing the purchase with the other dealer who is selling the vehicle. I did some comparison shopping in the meantime and nobody could come anywhere near the $8,000 price I'm paying. Assuming the inspection doesn't come up with anything unexpected I'll be going to pick up the car this weekend.

 

[keaton55]

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If the winter temperatures where you live are below -26C then I would avoid this car.

Weather is a very important aspect for all the electric cars. Before I used to live in Canada and I made a big mistake by buying a Prius. I could barely use the car and it stayed in the garage most of the time. Then I sold the car and after moved to Oregon decided to buy a Kia Soul. However I'm planning to buy a flat in Germany soon and not sure if I have to sell the car and buy new one there or take it with me.

 

[mammlouk]

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If the winter temperatures where you live are below -26C then I would avoid this car.

Weather is a very important aspect for all the electric cars. Before I used to live in Canada and I made a big mistake by buying a Prius. I could barely use the car and it stayed in the garage most of the time. Then I sold the car and after moved to Oregon decided to buy a Kia Soul. However I'm planning to buy a flat in Germany soon and not sure if I have to sell the car and buy new one there or take it with me.

Thanks for the feedback! We don't usually get temperatures anywhere near the -26c mentioned by Jeju. I've seen it that low maybe once or twice, but that's usually only because of windchill and if we had one of those exceptional days I could take a different vehicle or possibly telecommute.

 

[ksoul2084]

Well it's been a little bit, so I suppose I should post an update. I decided to move forward with the purchase. Hopefully I don't regret it later.

I got a call today saying that my EV Battery has been replaced. I'm just waiting for the KIA dealership to complete the inspection I requested as a sanity check before closing the purchase with the other dealer who is selling the vehicle. I did some comparison shopping in the meantime and nobody could come anywhere near the $8,000 price I'm paying. Assuming the inspection doesn't come up with anything unexpected I'll be going to pick up the car this weekend.

This is exciting news. I think you've gotten an excellent deal esp. considering you've still got 3 years of warranty on the entire drive-train, and a new battery.

Please post updates in the future after you've used the car for awhile so we can learn how it goes for you.

Remember, speed is the enemy of range with this car on the highway.

 

[mammlouk]

This is exciting news. I think you've gotten an excellent deal esp. considering you've still got 3 years of warranty on the entire drive-train, and a new battery.

Please post updates in the future after you've used the car for awhile so we can learn how it goes for you.

Remember, speed is the enemy of range with this car on the highway.

Thanks for all the input getting to the decision. I'm pretty excited. I picked up the car on Saturday. I guess I should've had a discussion with the sales guy in advance because I assumed he would put it on the charger for me since they knew I was driving up to get it from over an hour away. I was already planning to stop for a charge, but being my first go at owning an EV it made me a little nervous that they only had it charged to around 50%.

After picking it up we drove about 25 miles from Denver,CO to Castle Rock,CO. I put it on an EvGO level 2 charger for an 1 hour and 40 minutes while I went to eat lunch with my family. Then I drove it the rest of the way home to Colorado Springs, 42 miles mostly highway, but construction has traffic going around 60mph most of the way. I got home with 24 miles of range left no problem.

Ran a couple of errands on Saturday night and Sunday. Kept it on the level 1 charger whenever it was parked until I got it charged up back up to full. Drove it to work and back plus an errand yesterday. Everything is good so far. I'll put it back on the level 1 charger tonight when I get home.

I posted a few pictures here

 

[IanL]

Same colour as mine

I wasn't aware of heat pumps and battery heating when I bought it (2018 model) in January, but we've had a mild winter. How do you tell if your Soul EV has them fitted?

 

[notfred]

Heat pump is easy, just look at the air conditioner plumbing under the hood. If you have a heat pump there's an extra valve block on the left side of the car. There are pictures in a thread somewhere here.

Battery heater I think can only be determined by using Soul Spy or Torque and watch it heating the battery at low temperatures.

 

[notfred]

Found the thread with pictures of the heat pump valve block:
http://www.mykiasoulev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=992