Battery degradation

[2soul]

I've been wondering about range in cold weather recently - do we know at what temperature the battery heater is activated?

I believe I saw this activated at -20C.. take this with a pinch of salt though, as I'm not 100% certain since we didn't have too many days below -20C, and I wasn't about to sit in a cold car to find out

 

[JejuSoul]

I've been wondering about range in cold weather recently - do we know at what temperature the battery heater is activated?

I've been wondering too!
I have seen it recommended to leave the car plugged in if it will be left unused for a few days in sub zero temperatures. This is to power the heater that will prevent the battery electrolyte from freezing. Tesla cars have a warning message for such an event.

We just had two days of heavy snow and sub zero temperatures. My car had to be left at the bottom of the hill in a school car park, so no chance to plug it in.
The car was left for 48 hours at -6°C under a thick blanket of snow.

The car did not lose any SOC and had in fact gained range when I went back to get it today. It seems -6°C is not an issue.

 

[ZuinigeRijder]

This is written in the user manual of the Kia Soul EV. According to the manual this works only when the charging connector is connected. And apparently it is an option too?

High Voltage Battery Warmer System
The high voltage battery warmer system prevents reduction of battery output when battery temperature is low. If the charging connector is connected, the warmer system automatically
operate according to the battery temperature. Charging time may shorten compare to vehicles without the high voltage battery warmer system. But, electricity charge may increase because of high voltage battery warmer system operation. The high voltage battery warmer system operates when the charging connector is connected to the vehicle. However, the high voltage warmer system may not operate when battery temperature drops below -31°F (-35°C)

 

[notfred]

I think the leaf battery warmer kicks in at -21C and out at -5C. I've seen one day here where the temperature during the day was below -25C and my SoulEV lost 10kms of range sitting in the car park at work.

 

[Elmil]

I've seen one day here where the temperature during the day was below -25C and my SoulEV lost 10kms of range sitting in the car park at work.

Interesting! 10km range would be about 2kWh of energy. Was the car connected to the grid at that time? If not, this might be evidence of what's hinted in the service manual; that the battery heater is operated if needed even if it's not connected, as long as the SOC is high enough. The user manual only tells that the car must be plugged in for the heater to work.

My logger has recorded one occation when the battery heater operated in my car. It was at work in the evening and the car had been plugged in for a few hours at below -20C, just waiting for the pre-heating timer. The log shows that some of the 8 battery modules were at -1C, and the two heater temp sensor values increased from 0C to 18C in 8 minutes, at the same time all battery temps slowly got to or above 0C.

 

[notfred]

I've seen one day here where the temperature during the day was below -25C and my SoulEV lost 10kms of range sitting in the car park at work.

Interesting! 10km range would be about 2kWh of energy. Was the car connected to the grid at that time? If not, this might be evidence of what's hinted in the service manual; that the battery heater is operated if needed even if it's not connected, as long as the SOC is high enough.

It wasn't plugged in, no outlets at work yet :evil:

 

[Goofcat]

I have almost 18K miles on my 2015 EV+ bought March 2015. No noticeable mileage loss. The guesstimate range has always been all over the place since I live up the mountain. Mostly it shows 93miles when fully charged. Yesterday I got a 137 estimate when I charged at work after driving around town which is mostly flat.

 

[Like2bcheap]

I purchased mine March'15 as well and currently have 17k miles. From new to about November'15, it consistently indicated 106-108 miles if I did charge to 100%. I commute round trip and usually only need 60-68 miles so I only charged at 80% since it gave me 86-88 miles at that percentage and I never hit below the 20% mark when I get home. I use a 40a Leviton charger with the rare use of a DC charger for longer trips. December was when it started giving me funny numbers. I charged at the usual 80% overnight and found it only had 78 miles, which was about 10 miles off the usual. It wasn't concerning at first since I figured it was due to the colder climate. I live just past the Sacramento area closer to Lake Tahoe so it gets pretty chilly here. It's been pretty much downhill from there, my 80% went from 78 miles to 76 miles to 72 miles by February'16. So I have been forced to charge at 100% which only nets me 87 miles now and 80% only yields 67 miles. I though I was doing a pretty decent job at maintaining the battery so these numbers are very disappointing.

 

[tractioninc]

I though I was doing a pretty decent job at maintaining the battery so these numbers are very disappointing.

The range displayed on your dash is just a calculated estimate, often a fairly conservative one at that. A better point of comparison is your observed efficiency -- how much did that actually decrease as the weather got colder? If you remember (or took any notes) of the typical mi/kWh you averaged in warm weather, you could compare that to what you are averaging in the cold to get an actual measurement of your reduction in efficiency and real-world range.

 

[Like2bcheap]

Unfortunately I didn't keep track by writing figures down. I just went with whatever miles it had at 80% or 100% because it was pretty accurate until it's first drop in miles at the end of 2015. We haven't driven it as much since getting a Model X(15k miles so far) early last year. Currently it's at 26k miles and only gets 72 miles at 100% and 60 miles at 80%. So I can no longer get away with 80% for my commute and even at 100% I barely make it back home with approx 5-8% remaining driving 62-65 mph. I was hoping this past summer that it would come back to life and give me back some of those miles I've lost but it instead it got worse. I'm definitely not keeping it when the lease is up. The Tesla on the other hand is still true to its range after almost a year and no dip yet on its first winter.

 

[SmoothJ]

I have been keeping track of the Kia's battery SOC, the miles left on the GOM, the temp outside, and my a few other things since I purchased the car December 2016. I can tell you that my experience with the miles on the GOM have been all over the place. Granted it has been really cold in NJ for the last few days, so that doesn't help either. I currently have ~700 miles on the car at the moment.

So for example, yesterday I had 66% SOC with 52 miles left on the GOM with the heat on. Today, after driving some highway (max ~60 mph, and less than 3 miles), I had 49% with 36 miles left on the GOM (I only drove 9.12 miles total for the day) also with the heat on. Both of those times my miles/kWh were around 2.9.

I only charge the Kia usually once a week, but I started this week with 88%. So I would need to charge it tomorrow regardless. I only used a DC fast charge once, and only used a level 2 charger 4 times, and all other times I stick with the level 1 (till I get my tax refund so I can get the level 2 at home). I usually only charge the car to 80%, however it depends on if I need to go out far that week/weekend.

According to my spreadsheet, I have only hit 100+ on the GOM during the first few days of ownership, and then after that only a 96 several days after. Even after a full charge, I only hit mid 80s (maybe less). Latest 100% charge was from a level 2 charger at the mall (and snowing) a few days ago. It showed 85 miles (with the heat off) with the heat on, it was 70.

 

[Goofcat]

I have a March 2015 EV+ with 37K miles. This month the range has taken a complete nose dive. By my guess, I've lost about 50% in range! the drop off was rapid, happening over only three weeks or so. (I live in HI so no cold temps to deal with.)

When the car was new, I would drive my usual 60 mile round trip commute to work, and return home with 25% or so charge left. That started going down over the last two weeks, with me returning home with 15%, 11%, 5%. A few days ago, I ran out of charge 5 miles from home. Fortunately I was able to coast into a church parking lot and find an outlet.

Aloha Kia is looking at the car now, they can't find anything wrong on their computers. I've asked them to kick it up to Kia. We'll see what Kia does. Very disappointed by this, the car had been great up until recently. Now I don't trust it to get where I need to go.

FIY, now, on a full charge, the range estimation is 44 miles. Sometimes it's 38 miles. It used to be 93 or even 118 at times.

 

[SoulEV2016]

Have you a kWh meter on the plug ?
Have you a Torque Pro to measure the deterioration ?
What is your SOH on the GDS Console of the Kia Seller ?
What is the average speed indicate on the dashboard after your trip ?
What is your actual temperature (outside) ?
You use ONLY Chademo charge and never charge to 100% ?


but 44 miles, yes ... it's a problem (even for my high power profil at low temperature).

 

[Goofcat]

Have you a kWh meter on the plug ?
Have you a Torque Pro to measure the deterioration ? No, I don't have any testing equipment on the car


What is your SOH on the GDS Console of the Kia Seller ? Just asked the dealer to check the State of Health (SOH?), haven't heard back. don't know what GDS is.

What is the average speed indicate on the dashboard after your trip ? don't know, but I usually drive between 47-60mph. I'm on a small island, speed limit is 55mph

What is your actual temperature (outside) ? outside temp today is 75 degrees or so.

You use ONLY Chademo charge and never charge to 100% ? I mostly (95%) use my level II charger at home to charge to 100%. I've used the fast chargers may be 10 times in two years (that get's it to 83%). Occasionally I'll use other level 2 chargers on the island (charge point has several 6.6 ones here that are free).

but 44 miles, yes ... it's a problem (even for my high power profil at low temperature).

Yes, I've carried 14foot racing paddle boards on my car all over the island and have gotten better range, then what I've been getting the last couple of weeks.

Please let me know if you have any ideas on how to proceed with Kia on this to deal with this issue. I'm sure it is beyond the ability of the local dealer.

 

[SoulEV2016]

Buy an OBD2 reader : http://www.mykiasoulev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=711
Buy Torque Pro : https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.prowl.torque
Install the PIDs : http://www.mykiasoulev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=471&start=320#p6519

And we can see, together, if it's the battery deterioration ... or the drive (with the boat).

drive problem is displayed by this (eco-drive) panel : http://www.mykiasoulev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=471&start=170#p5404

deterioration problem is displayed here : http://www.mykiasoulev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=471&start=180#p5494

 

[Goofcat]

Dealer is keeping car for the day. to run the BMS test. Guess I'll know more tomorrow.

 

[notfred]

Could be something simple like a rubbing brake pad as well. That's easy to find if the car is on a hoist, with it in neutral and the parking brake off just try spinning the wheels and see how freely they rotate.

What's you electricity consumption / efficiency like? That will tell you if there is something mechanical / aerodynamic dragging that is using a lot more electricity to move the car. Ask for the SOH (batter State Of Health) print out from their GDS (Kia's diagnostic tool). That will show if you have lost battery capacity.

 

[Goofcat]

Heard back from Kia dealer. They ran a BMS test, and found that my batteries were at 58%. They have spoken to Kia, and the battery pack and the BMS are to be replaced due to it being defective. Has anyone else had this happen?

I had 37.5k miles, in two years driving around Hawaii.

 

[notfred]

Wow! That's the first battery replacement that I've heard about on this board.

 

[JejuSoul]

I think it is the first battery failure. yes.
This is not normal deterioration. In all other cars the battery has degraded slowly, and mostly in a linear fashion. A few % each year.
This is a sudden collapse in just a few weeks.
I suspect one cell, or one module had completely failed first, followed by cascading failure of the rest.
Interesting that the car had given no error message or warning light.

Anyway you are the first to win the battery lottery. Maybe you will even get one of the brand new bigger packs!