Replacing the single cells in the battery pack?

[Markinson]

This confirms to me that BMS reads only voltages from individual cells directly.
Doesn’t matter what capacity they have and if they differ slightly or massively.
Which means that we can put higher capacity cells as long as they respect 3.3V-4.1V range which is BMS programmed to monitor. Problem lies in fact that the weaker ones dictate the BMS, not the stronger ones. One week one can cripple the whole system, like in my case and Dondahska’s.
I could find somewhere 96 cells of any make and completely swap them all as long as we connect each cable to measure voltages and temperature readings and security switches. They need to be sized enough to fit into the shell of the whole pack and that they can trigger security switches if they get swollen. They can be 200Ah capacity, BMS will let them charge between 3.3V and 4.1V. But higher capacity for same voltage range, longer charging times, longer driving range.

Yes, I think you're right. This is why e-service.hu could do the 250-290km range with newer generations of cells, changed in soul's original battery housing. They said the newer cells would be able to run with wider voltage interval, but our old BMS won't use their higher voltage capability.
If they could reprogram the BMS, even higher range would be possible, nevertheless the valid range could be displayed as predicted possible range.

I'd be happy to replace the week cells in mine, so I could get back some range closer to the original.
This mild winter reduced my range to a predicted 130km, from which I can achieve max.150km with low heating in urban traffic.

Rural road speed and higher heating means the predicted 130km.

It's not bad, but I don't want to charge always to 100% (even though I know only the week cells reach the 4,11V level first, so the good cells are not really near to suffer damage from full charging).

Thank you for the upload and shared experience and knowledge.

 

[IanL]

I would expect the GOM to be very pessimistic, at least initially, as the algorithm would be unaware of the higher capacity. Depending on the design, it might be capable of slowly adapting.

 

[Perez]

Hello. Does anyone know if it is possible to replace the complete battery with BMS, of an original 2016 Soul with a 27kwh battery, and put in its place a used 30kwh battery? I mean if it is necessary to program the BMS, to adapt it to the new car? Thank you

 

[Markinson]

Hello. Does anyone know if it is possible to replace the complete battery with BMS, of an original 2016 Soul with a 27kwh battery, and put in its place a used 30kwh battery? I mean if it is necessary to program the BMS, to adapt it to the new car? Thank you

As far as I know...
... replacing the full battery pack means, that you replace the BMS as well (which is located inside of the battery pack), so you won't need to program anything.

So, yes, cut-paste and Ta-daaa...

 

[JejuSoul]

Correct. The external dimensions of the case and the external connections are identical.
Read this thread for a case study on how to do this swap.

If you are a programmer and have plenty of time to spare then the VMCU in the front of the car could be re-programmed to alter the driving dynamics. The 30kWh pack is heavier so the car's performance is different.
No one has done this and unless you are a race track driver I doubt you would notice the difference.

 

[kojairvs]

I successfully replaced the entire battery from Kia 2015 with a used one from 2018. The car's computer recognized the new battery without any problems because it receives all information from the BMS belonging to the battery and therefore there is no need to update...
I hope that will be in your case as well.

 

[Perez]

Thanks a lot. I'm glad to read that. So it's a very easy change. The doubt I had is if it has some kind of immo block in the bms by vin code. It also strikes me that the OBC charger has a different reference, may it be that the programming is different for batteries from 27 to 30 kwh?, or they simply took advantage of the restiling of 2018 to introduce improvements in the OBC??

Ref. OBC MY2018: 36400-0E245 Mando Q14.1E
Ref. OBC MY2016: 36400-0E240 Mando V11.1D

 

[kojairvs]

Hi Perez,
Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the changes in the charging system between different models.
It is true that my second-hand battery was removed from a car registered in 2018 in GB, but I think it is the 27kW version because it also only has 96 cells and not 100 as it should for 30kW.
In these few attached photos you can see the difference in codes between my original and used battery.
First photo is from the original and second is from replacing one, continues in that order.

 

[kojairvs]

… BMS from 30kW should probably have 4 more voltage measuring connections, one from each 10 cells modules (11 cells now). That is probably why they supply new harness cables when they replaced under warranty 27kW with 30kW battery. As I could see during my “bricolage” there were always one or two pins not used in multiple pin connectors. Which made me realize that they could keep old BMS and just update it to be able to use/recognize 100 cells instead of 96. And to be able to accommodate higher overall voltage,
If you have original BMS made for 100 cells than onboard computer will just use information received, I guess, and carry on. Only possible issue could be updating onboard computer software if there is communication issues between BMS and onboard comp.
Good luck and keep us posted…

 

[Perez]

Ok, thank you. So I understand, that you only changed the battery modules? and kept the original BMS? I can't do that because I go from 27 to 30 kwh.
There are more battery variants than I thought.
Photos mines in order :
Soul 02/2016
Soul 07/2018
Soul 01/2018 (probably has been changed)

 

[kojairvs]

No, actually I’ve got whole battery pack, in the shell and I’ve put it on my car. I’ve opened it first to see and compare and to connect it with my car before putting it on, just in case wouldn’t work, not fun to do it all twice .
My old BMS and 7 modules I’ve kept for future DIY repairs when my cells get to week.
JejuSoul knows more about which different codes belong to what year/model I think. He helped me a lot.

 

[JejuSoul]

..
JejuSoul knows more about which different codes belong to what year/model I think.

Well there's still a lot I don't know. All this data is confusing.

1. The OBC
AFAIK there is no problem charging a 27kWh pack from a 2018 OBC, nor a 30kWh pack from a 2016 OBC.
The only data the OBC gets from the BMS is stop, start and voltage required.

In the Charging Fault Error thread we spent a lot of time analysing the various codes on the sticker labels
All ended in either E or R. We assumed this stood for Europe and Rest of World.
All European cars had a code ending in E, and everything else R.
OBC MY2016: 36400-0E240 Mando V11.1D is the first with a D.

Also surprising is that Your OBC is an original. I guessed all would have been replaced by now.
My original OBC was V11.1R. It was replaced in 2017.
If the software has never been updated you will have 32A charging instead of 28.8A like everyone else.
Unlikely though because i think the software update was already included for MY2016.

In the picture below Sticker 1 is on the EPCU. This will have the original data.
Sticker 2 is on the OBC. If you have a replacement OBC this will be the repacement version.

 

[Perez]

Well there's still a lot I don't know. All this data is confusing.

1. The OBC
AFAIK there is no problem charging a 27kWh pack from a 2018 OBC, nor a 30kWh pack from a 2016 OBC.
The only data the OBC gets from the BMS is stop, start and voltage required.

In the Charging Fault Error thread we spent a lot of time analysing the various codes on the sticker labels
All ended in either E or R. We assumed this stood for Europe and Rest of World.
All European cars had a code ending in E, and everything else R.
OBC MY2016: 36400-0E240 Mando V11.1D is the first with a D.

Also surprising is that Your OBC is an original. I guessed all would have been replaced by now.
My original OBC was V11.1R. It was replaced in 2017.
If the software has never been updated you will have 32A charging instead of 28.8A like everyone else.
Unlikely though because i think the software update was already included for MY2016.

In the picture below Sticker 1 is on the EPCU. This will have the original data.
Sticker 2 is on the OBC. If you have a replacement OBC this will be the repacement version.

View attachment 285

Sorry it was a mistake, I was wrong the correct reference is 36400-0E240 Mando V11.1E

 

[Perez]

Sorry it was a mistake, I was wrong the correct reference is 36400-0E240 Mando V11.1E

View attachment 286

This is surprising to me, the OBC version is earlier than the one it should have according to the stickers.

 

[JejuSoul]

2. Talking about the Battery Assembly Pack codes. This is shown on the sticker on the outside of the battery box.

E4000 is an original 27kWh battery pack without a heater. Contains 96 E375 cells.
E4050 is an original 27kWh battery pack with a heater. Contains 96 75Ah cells.
E4200 and E4250 are the replacement packs that contain 96 80Ah cells.

E4300 is a 30kWh battery pack without a heater.
E4350 is a 30kWh battery pack with a heater.

In the posts above we hear that E4300 has 96 cells. It should be 100.
In the posts above we see pack E4310. Is this a newer version? What is the difference?
I think the 2018 pack in the picture must have had a replacement battery at some point.

When getting the fire-safety recall done on my 2015, they replaced my original wiring harness with a new one which is for the 2018 - code 37561E4310 WIRING HARNESS

The original 2018 cars do not get this updated wiring harness with their fire-safety recall so I have no idea what the importance ( if any ) of this newer version is.

 

[Perez]

2. Talking about the Battery Assembly Pack codes. This is shown on the sticker on the outside of the battery box.

E4000 is an original 27kWh battery pack without a heater. Contains 96 E375 cells.
E4050 is an original 27kWh battery pack with a heater. Contains 96 75Ah cells.
E4200 and E4250 are the replacement packs that contain 96 80Ah cells.

E4300 is a 30kWh battery pack without a heater.
E4350 is a 30kWh battery pack with a heater.

In the posts above we hear that E4300 has 96 cells. It should be 100.
In the posts above we see pack E4310. Is this a newer version? What is the difference?
I think the 2018 pack in the picture must have had a replacement battery at some point.

When getting the fire-safety recall done on my 2015, they replaced my original wiring harness with a new one which is for the 2018 - code 37561E4310 WIRING HARNESS

The original 2018 cars do not get this updated wiring harness with their fire-safety recall so I have no idea what the importance ( if any ) of this newer version is.

Pack E4310 It is from a damaged car that I just acquired, I do not know the history so I do not know if it has been replaced, in the battery housing there is the following stickers that appears the date 11/12/2017


In cases where Kia replaces the batteries with warranty modules, only the internal part, kept the casing. I understand that it replaces the stickers??

 

[kojairvs]

Hi,
This is E4300 battery pack.
Definitely only 96 cells, I did physically check and on my OBD CarScaner app I have only 96 cells readings as well.
Not sure are they 80 or 75Ah, but for me that isn’t important after all. By the time I need to change modules or cells they will be different capacity anyway.
And no heaters as JujuSoul said.

 

[JejuSoul]

...
This is E4300 battery pack.
Definitely only 96 cells, ...

I am not convinced by your math.
The layout of a 96 cell pack has module heights of 7, 5, 5, 7
This pack has a stack of 8 at the back.

The yellow sticker has date 2023/05/19 suggesting this is a brand new replacement pack.
You have lucked out!

 

[kojairvs]

You are right again Jeju,
I was convinced that they added one cell per module on the 10-cell modules to make 11 cells. So I just counted the number of levels on the small modules. In these pictures, if we look at the grooves on the left side, because there is a heating plate in front on the old one that hides the levels, we can see that there is one more level on the 14-cells module on the “new” battery.
So my OBD doesn't have a good connection with the BMS because the OBD reader only shows 96 cells instead of 100?
I’m not sure that I want to do any updating of my OBD, as long as car runs smoothly
We learn every day something new, thanks to you

 

[JejuSoul]

...
So my OBD doesn't have a good connection with the BMS because the OBD reader only shows 96 cells instead of 100?
I’m not sure that I want to do any updating of my OBD, as long as car runs smoothly

There are two other possible explanations.
1/ The app you are using doesn't support this version of the BMS. ( Probable )
2/ They didn't connect the voltage sensors to 4 of the cells. Maybe they used the wrong wiring harness. ( Improbable )