2015 Soul EV: Out of State Battery Replacement

[Roci]

Greetings, Kia Soul EV Forum! Long time reader, but first time poster due to some pretty serious issues with my 2015 Kia Soul EV. I am looking for some advice on how to proceed since I live in Indiana and the nearest EV certified Kia dealership is in Georgia.

My Soul EV has been having three big problems since being purchased off-lease about a year ago.

The first issue is that anytime the speed goes over 60 MPH, the car pops up a warning message that says "Power limited", with a Turtle symbol appearing in the main display.

Once this message appears, it is impossible to go any faster than the current speed of about 60 MPH, even with the pedal all the way down. When I view the EV Power Consumption screen, it shows the drivetrain is only using a max of 17 kW!

The second issue is that the range on the car has fallen steadily over the last year, from somewhere around 60 miles when first purchased, to now typically under 20 miles rated range on the GOM. Suspecting battery degredation, I have read the threads on capturing CAN data to obtain the internal battery degradation values. Here is a screenshot of some of the values. I am using the iOS app OBD Fusion with a WiFi OBD reader, since I don't have access to an Android device for use with Soul Spy.

When using the formula from JejuSoul's GitHub site for calculating a State of Health %, I am coming up with a number of 70.4% SOH. Here is my math used to determine that:

• Lost SOH = 27 * ((10 - (MaxDeterioration + MinDeterioration) / 2) / 100 = -7.992 kWh
  SOH in kWh = 27 + LostSOH = 19.008 kWh
  SOH in % = LostSOH / 27 * 100 = 70.4%

The third issue is that when charging, the car will charge up to 100% and then shut off. At first all looks normal, but after some time has passed and you go to start the car, the display will actually show that it has only reached 78% - 80% SOC. If you plug the charge cable back in at this point, it will continue charging and then a few hours later actually complete the charging session and now be at the correct 100% SOC. This issue coupled with the reduced range has resulted in nearly being stranded once or twice now. :shock:

I am thinking that these three issues are related to severe battery degradation and/or cell failure. It is definitely looking like it would be close to being eligible for a battery replacement to me, but with the distance to the dealership, I want to be as sure as possible that my findings are accurate. It would be quite disappointing to have the car transported to Georgia, only for them to say it is within their warranty specs!

 

[JejuSoul]

-
Yes. You need a battery replacement. This car is showing the most severe battery degradation problems of any car we have seen.
You need to contact Kia and start talking to them about how to resolve this, before sending the car out of state.

If you send the car to Georgia they will reset the BMS. The battery computer will reset to its factory state, and they will claim to have fixed the problem. After resetting the BMS it takes a few days of driving and charging for the computer to accurately measure the battery health correctly again.
If you make sure they actually test the car properly, actually drive it, then the problems should be immediately apparent.
Good luck.

 

[Kish]

Ouch, that looks pretty bad :? . You're definitely on hook for a new battery, but as Jeju mentioned, it may be an uphill battle for you fighting with the dealer (with back-and-forth) out of state. I would definitely not recommend this car to anyone who doesn't have a EV-certified Kia dealership nearby (or in their state).

Hindsight 20/20, maybe a do a bit more research on buying a car that was never originally sold in your state and/or cannot be serviced in your state. There are several members in this forum from AZ that had to ship their car to CA for service/battery replacement which turned out to be a nightmare (multiple trips, taking weeks or months at dealership). I encourage you to search through and read some of their experiences before proceeding.

 

[JejuSoul]

-
The worst out-of-state experience was for a broken ch arger in Juneau Alaska.

I contacted our dealer, Lee Johnson Kia, in Kirkland WA. They went to bat for us. They have been very helpful and supportive. It is Kia who has been terribly unresponsive, and denied that they had any obligation because we have the vehicle in Alaska, and Kia said they didn't support Alaska.
Kia is just totally incomprehensible to us. Fortunately, we saved the emails in which they told us (before the sale) that warranty service would be provided IN JUNEAU by contracting with some other local service provider. The dealer has been speaking with Kia Customer Support on our behalf (they still have not had any more contact with us), and, apparently, our saved emails have had some effect. The dealer reports that Kia now wants to have the vehicle transported from Juneau to Seattle for servicing. The downside is that it will take about three weeks, just for the round trip transport (by barge) between Juneau and Seattle. Just the transportation will cost about $3,000. We have suggested that it would be faster and cheaper to fly a technician from Seattle to Juneau to replace the OBC.

see - Charging Fault error.

 

[Roci]

Thanks guys for the validation that everything I was experiencing was indeed due to a bad battery. I just placed the call to Kia corporate and after a lengthy call trying to get them to understand the situation, our current plan is for me to drop the car off at a local dealership in town, and from there they will handle the transportation of it to a certified service center. I can't wait for the multiple discussions and explanations that will likely be required with the actual service techs at the final destination :lol:

As far as being a bad idea to purchase the car at all, I totally agree with you. I would not have purchased it had I known it could not be serviced locally. Before I bought the car, I called the dealership in town and the tech I talked with on the phone said there would be no problem with me bringing in the car for service. They even let me schedule an appointment to take care of the outstanding recall on the car (steering pinion), so at that point I was confident there would be no problems owning it and having any warranty issues taken care of. It wasn't until I dropped the car off with them after the purchase, that a few hours later they called me with the bad news that they couldn't even do the recall work, which had nothing to do with any high voltage components. Some pretty bad luck all around, I guess!

 

[Roci]

Wanted to give you all an update on this story. I'm going to start with a recommendation to anybody going through an out of state battery replacement where the car must be transported to another dealership for service. They will ask you to drop off the car at your local dealership, at which point it will be transported to an EV certified dealership in another state, but this is before the case has been escalated to someone who can actually approve the transport & service. So I would advise you to not drop off your car until getting confirmation that your car will be transported by a specific date!

In my case, my Soul EV sat in a parking lot at the dealership for an entire month before I was able to get in touch with this person. I called the Kia Consumer Affairs hotline a couple times per week, and each time they tried to reach my agent but with no luck. After about 3 weeks sitting outside in frigid temperatures, I visited my car and found out that it had a dead 12v battery. I had to remove the battery, take it home and charge it up overnight, and return it to the vehicle. About a week later I finally got through to the escalation agent, who approved the transport and apologized for the delay.

Another week goes by, and I get word that the car was transported to Georgia. Upon arrival the service manager at that dealership called me to go over all the issues I was having. He already knew about several bulletins and recalls that were due, and seemed to be familiar with the actual issues I was having too, stating that several other cars had been transported to him for battery replacements from other states. Sure enough, just a couple days later, the Kia agent called me and said the battery replacement was approved! At this point I was almost afraid to ask about the ETA of delivery, knowing that several others in the forum have had to wait 3-6 months due to these batteries being backordered, but apparently there is a new supplier for these batteries and there was no ETA as of yet.

I tried asking for more information on who this supplier might be or for details on the battery itself, like is it new or refurbed? How is it possible that someone other than Kia is now making a proprietary battery pack for their cars? The only thing that comes to my mind is that perhaps they are sending the defective packs to a third-party refurbisher, who might be tearing them down and taking the good cells/modules out and putting them back into a new pack.

 

[RubberToe]

Roci,
Keep us posted. I'm hearing my battery is back ordered too, and I have to estimated delivery date. Will be interesting to see if they start using rebuilt batteries. I'm guessing that we consumers will not even be told if that is the case or not. They only need to get it back up above 70% is my understanding. You would think they would do the best job possible in any case, to avoid having to do this multiple times per car.

Good Luck!

RT

 

[JejuSoul]

...I tried asking for more information on who this supplier might be or for details on the battery itself, like is it new or refurbed? How is it possible that someone other than Kia is now making a proprietary battery pack for their cars? The only thing that comes to my mind is that perhaps they are sending the defective packs to a third-party refurbisher, who might be tearing them down and taking the good cells/modules out and putting them back into a new pack.

We don't know what is going to happen when the supply of existing battery packs runs out. SK Innovation now make the packs for the new 64kWh Soul. It's a different chemistry. Will they still make the old ones for replacements? I doubt Kia will ever tell us. Please report back when you get your new pack.

 

[User 295]

...I have read the threads on capturing CAN data to obtain the internal battery degradation values. Here is a screenshot of some of the values. I am using the iOS app OBD Fusion with a WiFi OBD reader, since I don't have access to an Android device for use with Soul Spy.

Roci, what WiFi OBD reader did you use with OBD Fusion on iOS?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Roci]

I used an ELM327 WiFi adapter. This is the specific one I ordered but it looks like it's unavailable now: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QRE0OOA/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1. There are others on Amazon and I would think any of them would work just as well.

 

[bucolucas]

Any update on this? I'm looking at needing a battery replacement and am interested in the type of battery they use to replace it with.

Also I'm doubtful they would actually replace the battery with one that has exactly 70% SOH since it would only have to drop 1% for it to be replaced again

 

[cixelsyd]

Any update on this? I'm looking at needing a battery replacement and am interested in the type of battery they use to replace it with.

Also I'm doubtful they would actually replace the battery with one that has exactly 70% SOH since it would only have to drop 1% for it to be replaced again

I just received my '15 back today for a battery replacement (took 1 week start to finish). The invoice shows a remanufactured part. SoulSpy shows 96 cells, all with consistent (within .02) voltages and an estimated SOH of 110%.

 

[bucolucas]

What's the normal variance? You said .02 between cells, I'm seeing .2 in mine.

This is my battery while charging:

I took this screenshot after a drive that used 30% of my battery

Odd thing is the same cell that has an undervoltage while driving is over-volted while charging

 

[cixelsyd]

Not sure what "normal" is but I think .2 is quite significantly off of that, that's about how mine were looking as well before the replacement. Looks like you have at least 2 bad cells.

Have you updated Soul Spy? The new version has a more accurate SOH estimator, what is it saying yours is at?

 

[bucolucas]

It updated last night... My SOH was steadily declining over the last month from 84 to 77%.



SOH was 36.7% this morning, holy moly. I thought it was a glitch until I read your reply. But the math checks out, I typically go 30-35 miles on a charge. I chalked it up to some highway driving, and was waiting for the 70% mark before making the trek to a Kia EV dealership.

Should probably move that up a bit now.

 

[cixelsyd]

It updated last night... My SOH was steadily declining over the last month from 84 to 77%.



SOH was 36.7% this morning, holy moly. I thought it was a glitch until I read your reply. But the math checks out, I typically go 30-35 miles on a charge. I chalked it up to some highway driving, and was waiting for the 70% mark before making the trek to a Kia EV dealership.

Should probably move that up a bit now.

Yes, this was exactly my experience. Definitely get it in to them. You may have to push to get them to actually look at the SOH test, I had a hell of a time with it but eventually got it sorted.

Related, my remanufactured battery is showing 100% SOH after a full calibration cycle (run to <20% then charge to 100%. min and max det both read 1%.

 

[bucolucas]

Off the phone with Kia, they gave me a case number and said someone would get in touch for shipping arrangements... Closest dealership that can work on EVs is 600-900 miles away (I'm in KS)

Also said they could get me a loaner car in the meantime.

Much less runaround than I was expecting. I'll stay in touch with whatever dealership works on it to make sure they run a SOH.

They made a note that I had to run the diagnostics myself lol... The rep took down the name of the app (Soul Spy) and the method of diagnosis (Bluetooth OBD) hopefully it helps them with cases like this

 

[Roci]

Any update on this? I'm looking at needing a battery replacement and am interested in the type of battery they use to replace it with.

Also I'm doubtful they would actually replace the battery with one that has exactly 70% SOH since it would only have to drop 1% for it to be replaced again

Sorry for lack of update on my original case, I had been searching for my OBDII adapter so I could give real data to back up what I was seeing with my new battery pack, but have given up on finding it.

In short, we got the car back on March 16, so it was at the out of state dealership for just under 2 months, and it is like a completely new car now. I highly recommend anybody with serious degradation to go through the hassle of getting their pack replaced, even though it will be with a re-manufactured pack. I was also fully reimbursed for the rental car I had to get from Enterprise, because our local dealership would not offer us a rental car since they were not the ones actually doing the work. The calculated range now is 92 miles at 97% charge. I will post any updates on SOH and/or cell count if I can get a CAN capture.

 

[wyatt]

Hey Roci, how did you enter the PIDs into the Fusion app for the ELM 327? I see where to enter custom PIDs but it isn't clear what the PID# is on the GitHub docs... and I assume the last column is the Metric to English Offset value?

Trying to do this without having to buy an Android device :roll:

 

[Roci]

Yes it is confusing converting between the Torque PID values and Fusion PIDs, but here are the ones I got working through trial and error. All of this is valid only for a 27kWh battery, you can adapt it for the a different battery from the data at https://github.com/JejuSoul/OBD-PIDs-for-HKMC-EVs.

Name                                Description  Units  Min Value  Max Value  PID Number  Equation
000_Available Charge Power          Max REGEN    kW     0          98         01          ((F * 256) + G) / 100
000_Available Discharge Power       Max POWER    kW     0          98         01          ((H * 256) + I) / 100
000_Battery Cell Voltage Deviation  V Diff       V      0          0.5        05          U / 50
000_Maximum Cell Voltage            Max Cell V   V      2.8        4.2        01          X / 50
000_Minimum Cell Voltage            Min Cell V   V      2.8        4.2        01          Z / 50
000_Maximum Deterioration           Max DET      %      0          100        05          ((Z * 256) + AA) / 10
000_Minimum Deterioration           Max DET      %      0          100        05          ((AC * 256) + AD) / 10
000_State of Charge Display         SOC Disp     %      0          100        05          AF / 2

The following values are the same across all of these PIDs:

• Category: Engine
• Manufacturer: Generic
• Metric/English Units: Use the same units for both
• Metric to English Scale Factor: 1
• Metric to English Offset: 0
• Module/Header: 7E4
• OBD Mode: 21
• Priority: High

To get the State of Health % out of these numbers, I used the following equations. I'm sure you could get Fusion to do this math automatically but I was just doing it as simple as possible for me at the time:

Lost SOH = 27 * ((10 - (MaxDeterioration + MinDeterioration) / 2) / 100
SOH in kWh = 27 + LostSOH
SOH in % = LostSOH / 27 * 100