Battery Ageing Model

[Tom]

I did a fully charge with 23397 Kilometer (from 19% to100% with 6.x Kw) and battery was arround 18 Grad C at fully charged.
Now I am even better then 3 weeks ago and at 6.0% and 4.4%.

So what happen the last weeks.....nothing special...exept:
I charged 2 times at a 50er Chademo with 43kW
Ones from 1% (right 1% I arrived) to 81% (within arround 29 minutes).
Then the same night from arround 27% to 87%

 

[JejuSoul]

Tom - your car is now one of the best.
It seems the fact that it showed really high deterioration a year ago, was the BMS showing a false reading rather than anything being wrong with your battery.

So in terms of the most recent single data point the ranking is:
Teirhy - 294,253km
Elmil - 197,751km
Birkeland - 186,207km
JejuSoul - 182,872km
Tom - 179,977km
GizmoEV - 179,413km

The data we have still gives us no idea of whether the battery will be good for just over 160,000km, or what I would hope to see 320,000km.
I guess we will have to wait a few more years.

 

[JejuSoul]

-
Looking at some dtat from the i Miev today.

Firstly some data from EVpositive - http://evpositive.com/battery-history.html

​Lithium batteries degrade over time, when exposed to very high or low temperatures, and also with use (EV distance). The quickest loss of capacity is when the EV is new, and then the loss of battery capacity slows down so the "curve" should level out a bit as the battery gets older. The expectation is about 80% of original capacity after 10 years. This is the "PMC" (Percentage of Manufacturer's Capacity) percentage displayed in our App EvBatMon. Note that some EV "hide" the full capacity of the battery so a particular EV may appear to hold its entire capacity for the first few years.

This is a deterioration curve for the i Miev plotted against distance in km. (Chart on the website linked above is for O utlander P HEV)



-------------------------------------

So I was reading KiwiEV.com blog today - Battery costs, stickers, and a winter road trip.
He has a 5 1/2 year old car with 70% deterioration.
The warranty only lasts 5 years or 50,000km.
He asked the cost of a replacement battery. - 18,000 Euro. Ouch!
Best to watch his video, because he still loves his car, and has multiple suggestions for what to do if he really needs to swap the battery.



https://youtu.be/tBaHExHwrbs

 

[SoulEV2016]

i drive this day ... to test the formula for estimating the time before end of charge ... and i see this.
My DET have been corrected automaticly ... ?!?

I have restarted 2 time torque pro to see if my OBD2 can jump frames ... but no, the VIN PIDs work great (very sensible PIDs, good to see a jump of OBD2 frames at the start of the bluetooth link).

 

[JejuSoul]

SoulEV2016 : if you post that deterioration data again after March 1st, please add the odometer reading. I was arbitrarily ignoring cars less than a year old because having all zero readings on the BMS don't give a trend. Your car will be 1 on March 1st and will be an extraordinary outlier. 475,000km.
France will be in Gold and Silver position in the table.
I still don't understand your charge / discharge figures though. Nor do I understand how the max and min cell members are both cell 1.

 

[SoulEV2016]

6 months at 1,1kW.
3 months at 2,2kW (to see a change of consumption at the plug vs. kilometers).
from now, at 1,1kW (so 5 months).

plugged on grid 22h of 24h per day.
always pre-heating/climate of the cabine before starting.
800-1000km per month.

2 chademo 43kW charges per month (15-18kWh each time).

i think the battery at 36°C with 2°C outside is a part of the equation ...
usual battery temperature is not less than 24°C after my drive (even with -5°C).

the reset of the DET append without explanation, i don't do anything new from my profil.
perhaps, it's the approch of a operating hour that it refresh the calculation of DET.

the only thing that i have noticed is a middle power at the onboard charger :
- usually = 1100w (EVSE setting)
- this week = from 590w to 1000w for 1h before the end of charge

 

[mtndrew1]

The odometer reads roughly 37,000 miles / 59,545 km and my SOH is at 94.9%.

Do you have the matching min and max deterioration values for that SOH reading? The average of those should be about 15% if our idea about the buffer being 10% is correct.
Also it would be great to see a range test done on your car before you return it.

Sorry it took so long, the dealer broke the car while they had it in for a tire rotation. I was not pleased.

Anyway the min/max deterioration values at the time nearest the battery SOH test are:

MIN DET 13.0%
MAX DET 15.5%
CEC 12530
CED 11985
MAX CELL #3
MIN CELL #20

Edit: Approximately 37,000 miles / 59,545 km on the odometer

 

[JejuSoul]

-
Thanks for the extra data. And how did they damage the car doing a tire rotation?
Also do you mind sharing the VIN number, so we can guesstimate the build date.
Yours is one of the oldest cars we have data for. Zunige Rider has the oldest, VIN 482
They went on sale in Europe a couple of months before the US.

Comparing your car with the two datapoints from Elmil.

CalcSOH = 110% - Average(deterioration) = 110% - (MaxDet+MinDet)/2

SOH      MaxDet   MinDet    CalcSOH
99.2%   11.5%   10.0%       99.25%
99.5%   11.2%    9.7%        99.55%
94.9%   15.5%   13.0%       95.75%

 

[mtndrew1]

-
Thanks for the extra data. And how did they damage the car doing a tire rotation?
Also do you mind sharing the VIN number, so we can guesstimate the build date.
Yours is one of the oldest cars we have data for. Zunige Rider has the oldest, VIN 482
They went on sale in Europe a couple of months before the US.

Comparing your car with the two datapoints from Elmil.

CalcSOH = 110% - Average(deterioration) = 110% - (MaxDet+MinDet)/2

SOH      MaxDet   MinDet    CalcSOH
99.2%   11.5%   10.0%       99.25%
99.5%   11.2%    9.7%        99.55%
94.9%   15.5%   13.0%       95.75%

My car's VIN ends in 01125 and it was delivered in the US in October of 2014, so it's a relatively early car.

I overstated my mileage above; upon starting up the car last night I realized I'm at about 37,000 miles. I'll update the original post.

As for the damage, the dealer cracked my instrument cluster lens (!) and lied about it, taking four business days to service the car and leaving tools and parts in it. They had to dismantle the dash to repair the lens and scratched up a bunch of parts and created many new rattles. It's been a disaster.

 

[JejuSoul]

...As for the damage, the dealer cracked my instrument cluster lens (!) ..

Hmm. That doesn't sound possible during a tire rotation. Hope they gave you a good car during the 4 day repair.

 

[mtndrew1]

...As for the damage, the dealer cracked my instrument cluster lens (!) ..

Hmm. That doesn't sound possible during a tire rotation. Hope they gave you a good car during the 4 day repair.

I too am mystified at how they did that. They also got grease on my seats and scratched all four rims.

They gave me some Kia crapbox to drive around during this mess. I made my displeasure with the entire situation known all the way up the dealer's and Kia corporate's chain of command.

This experience has soured me on the Kia brand as a whole. I think I'm ready to move on to a premium brand to avoid sub-par service and I'm hoping that my Model 3 will be ready in time for my lease expiration this Fall.

 

[SoulEV2016]

Perhaps, they use an old tire balancing machine ... ?

-

 

[mtndrew1]

This is a modern facility and they did not do a balance.

They simply do shoddy work, lie about damaging cars, and cater to the lowest common denominator (Kia Rio $79/mo customers). It's been the first time I've regretted buying my Soul EV.

 

[Tom]

Now I have:

7.2%
5.6%


23'900 Kilometer

Charged from 12% to 100% with again 6.6kWh in 4 hours 4 minutes
Battery 20° C after charging
Outside 7° C

 

[JejuSoul]

-

Some interesting data from the French Forum - Ca y est ! Elle est arrivée ...

On the 14th March. A 3 year old car bought used with only 3100km.

The same car a week later after a few drives and charges

It is possible that an unscrupulous dealer reset the BMS, but I very much doubt it.
The SOH is above 100% in both cases. There is nothing to hide.
I think that the car was genuinely at zero det when it was parked.
Over time det happens but the BMS cannot register this until a certain amount of driving and charging have taken place.

 

[Elmil]

It is possible that an unscrupulous dealer reset the BMS, but I very much doubt it.
The SOH is above 100% in both cases. There is nothing to hide.
I think that the car was genuinely at zero det when it was parked.
Over time det happens but the BMS cannot register this until a certain amount of driving and charging have taken place.

The explanation is most likely that the battery had never been fully charged and cycled. For example, the dealer I bought my car from have a 20kW Chademo, which is used for their demo cars. They take some test rides and when needed they just plug it in and get it filled up... to 84%.
I doubt they ever use the slow e vse.

Last spring they let me have a loaner Soul EV. It had something between 1500 and 2000km on the odometer, and the deterioration numbers where all zero. After a slow charge at work from 51% to 100%, the deterioration numbers changed to Max 0.5 and Min 1.5 ...

For my car, it will pass 60000km tomorrow and I'll have service done in two weeks. Will report the SOH then.

 

[JejuSoul]

-
There's a thread on the Canadian Kia Soul Facebook page discussing Battery Ageing.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/783719698403049/permalink/1129701483804867/

Some interesting comments

I'm curious to see how many km's people have on their cars so far. We're up around 85,000km, and so far it's been the standard repairs (OBC 3x in a row, steering pin, a seized caliper while waiting for the OBC, and I ripped the seat adjustment level off).
If there's been any degradation I think it's been minimal. There hasn't been any noticeable range drop..maybe 7km on average. First summer I could get the GOM to 195km, last summer about 185km, but we had also put on aftermarket rims and a spoiler by that point. Charge time is exactly the same as it was new. We do every little trick possible to treat the battery well, so hopefully it's paying off!

I'll have had mine for 2 years this week, and I'm at 72,000km. Maintenance has been 0 (other than tire rotations, and 1 OBC replacement). I agree - don't think there has been little if any range change. L2 charge time is unchanged, but I'm starting to think there is an issue with L3 charging - above 80% is taking much longer and much more energy than I think it should (typically ~200w/1%, but above 81% it rises to 500w+/1%). I'm thinking about getting the batteries checked out to make sure everything is good.

 

[Elmil]

.
Last night my deterioration numbers took a step upwards. They are now:

Max 13.2
Min 11.7
Odometer 60266 km.

 

[JejuSoul]

.
Last night my deterioration numbers took a step upwards. They are now:
Max 13.2
Min 11.7
Odometer 60266 km.

Thanks Elmil. As always your numbers are close together and rising slowly.
Currently it seems your car will drive about 200,000km before needing a replacement battery.

My trendline is much the same as yours, but my individual datapoints are much more varied. As they always have been.

km            date              max         min
31,250	15-Feb-17	      8.5	       1.1
31,504	21-Feb-17	      8.5	       5.4
33,088	19-Mar-17        9.5	       8.6
33,250	22-Mar-17	     10.0	     8.6
33,500	26-Mar-17	     10.5	     1.7

 

[Elmil]

.
We are heading towards spring here in Sweden, with daytime temperatures of +18°C last few days (although it will snow the coming weekend.. :? ). It feels like getting milder temperatures after winter is triggering the deterioration updates. My values immediately bounced back and they are now:

Max 11.4
Min 9.9
Odometer 60400