Resolved: Heat pump stopped working after climate software update SA427, fixed via Kia Service Action 210031

[MassDeduction]

[...]So there we have it. There is nothing Kia service seems willing or able to do to fix this. I now have a vehicle with an inoperative heat pump, which is consuming far more power than it should for heating (killing range in the process).

The only positive is that the second dealer did not charge anything for the inspection (which I found odd, as the vehicle warranty ended last month).

Does anyone have any suggestions? I am at a loss at this point as to how best to proceed.

I'm concerned about this thread, as I have a growing network of new and used Kia Souls owned by people I know, all recommended by me. The local Kia dealer has been excellent, with every person I've dealt with being awesome. The suggestion that Kia Canada may not be being reasonable/sensible in your case is alarming.

My first thought is to ask them what it would cost to repair/replace the heat pump, outside of warranty service. With that number in hand, go to the top of Kia Canada as another person in this thread suggested. They may prefer to replace the heat pump than take a potential PR hit. Well, a worsening PR hit as they're already taking a PR hit in this thread. But I agree with the other person who said be nice to start with. You can always escalate your frustration, but if you start escalated then you have nowhere to go. I'm a small business owner, and I appreciate when a customer gives me an opportunity to solve a problem rather than them screaming at me.

 

[ksoul2084]

As promised, the results.

The second dealer (mechanic) and I did an initial walkaround and demonstration of the non operation of the heat pump. At 14c ambient and a heat setting of 22c in the vehicle, all heat was produced by the PTC, which both the mechanic and I observed. He acknowledged this seemed incorrect, and took the vehicle into the shop.

After looking over the vehicle, he reported the following :

- No software faults with the vehicle (everything is up to date and appears to be the correct version)
- No apparent faults with the vehicle

I asked him about how he can explain the fact that the heat pump is not operating. He could not explain it, and was very careful in his response (to not directly acknowledge that the non operation of the heat pump is actually a problem). In fact, the paperwork I received does not address the functioning of the heat pump at all, similar to the first dealership response to this issue.

So there we have it. There is nothing Kia service seems willing or able to do to fix this. I now have a vehicle with an inoperative heat pump, which is consuming far more power than it should for heating (killing range in the process).

The only positive is that the second dealer did not charge anything for the inspection (which I found odd, as the vehicle warranty ended last month).

Does anyone have any suggestions? I am at a loss at this point as to how best to proceed.

I wonder if the new sw updates have a bug (or intentional change) that disables the heat pump for some reason? That would explain it.

Has anyone been able to document that their heatpump behaves differently than what you are seeing since the sw update (or even prior)?

 

[2016Electric]

[...]So there we have it. There is nothing Kia service seems willing or able to do to fix this. I now have a vehicle with an inoperative heat pump, which is consuming far more power than it should for heating (killing range in the process).

The only positive is that the second dealer did not charge anything for the inspection (which I found odd, as the vehicle warranty ended last month).

Does anyone have any suggestions? I am at a loss at this point as to how best to proceed.

I'm concerned about this thread, as I have a growing network of new and used Kia Souls owned by people I know, all recommended by me. The local Kia dealer has been excellent, with every person I've dealt with being awesome. The suggestion that Kia Canada may not be being reasonable/sensible in your case is alarming.

My first thought is to ask them what it would cost to repair/replace the heat pump, outside of warranty service. With that number in hand, go to the top of Kia Canada as another person in this thread suggested. They may prefer to replace the heat pump than take a potential PR hit. Well, a worsening PR hit as they're already taking a PR hit in this thread. But I agree with the other person who said be nice to start with. You can always escalate your frustration, but if you start escalated then you have nowhere to go. I'm a small business owner, and I appreciate when a customer gives me an opportunity to solve a problem rather than them screaming at me.

I hear you... I too have recommended this vehicle prior to this point, and others have purchased. In fact, I don't think it's a bad vehicle, but a good vehicle can be a bad vehicle if it is not supported by the manufacturer, or if the dealer network doesn't know what they are doing and damage the vehicle during repairs. Did I mention that the vehicle was in the shop several times over the last summer having various A/C components replaced in an attempt to stop it from leaking refrigerant? (it took them replacing the condenser, then an expansion valve, and most recently the chiller to finally repair the leak.. Or at least slow it down enough that it seems to still work). During that process, the system ran extensively with low refrigerant charge, unknown loss of refrigerant oil, one occasion where they left the charge port caps off and the ports got dusty/sandy).. Who knows what kind of long term damage that caused!?! Oh and I also noticed refrigerant leak detecting UV dye on the lines and port caps, suggesting they either added dye, or due to using the same recovery machine or gauge line set as used on conventional auto AC systems... Either way that is expressly prohibited in the factory service manual due to incompatibility of the oils used in the different systems (the compressor on ours is electrically driven and using the wrong oil can cause a breakdown in the insulation / shorting inside the compressor).

I have extensively dealt with kia Canada on this matter, but have not written a letter yet. All my efforts with kia were a total waste of time, and their universal response (kia and the dealers) is that there is no problem with the vehicle... Though they refuse to categorically state in writing that the heat pump is working.

I may do that (write a letter) , though I'm not sure how much luck I'd have in obtaining a quoted replacement value for the heat pump system (I'm almost positive the dealer would not want to spend time quoting that, as so many parts are involved)... Still, I suppose trying to obtain that quote couldn't hurt, since I've spent (wasted) so much time on this already.

 

[2016Electric]

As promised, the results.

The second dealer (mechanic) and I did an initial walkaround and demonstration of the non operation of the heat pump. At 14c ambient and a heat setting of 22c in the vehicle, all heat was produced by the PTC, which both the mechanic and I observed. He acknowledged this seemed incorrect, and took the vehicle into the shop.

After looking over the vehicle, he reported the following :

- No software faults with the vehicle (everything is up to date and appears to be the correct version)
- No apparent faults with the vehicle

I asked him about how he can explain the fact that the heat pump is not operating. He could not explain it, and was very careful in his response (to not directly acknowledge that the non operation of the heat pump is actually a problem). In fact, the paperwork I received does not address the functioning of the heat pump at all, similar to the first dealership response to this issue.

So there we have it. There is nothing Kia service seems willing or able to do to fix this. I now have a vehicle with an inoperative heat pump, which is consuming far more power than it should for heating (killing range in the process).

The only positive is that the second dealer did not charge anything for the inspection (which I found odd, as the vehicle warranty ended last month).

Does anyone have any suggestions? I am at a loss at this point as to how best to proceed.

I wonder if the new sw updates have a bug (or intentional change) that disables the heat pump for some reason? That would explain it.

Has anyone been able to document that their heatpump behaves differently than what you are seeing since the sw update (or even prior)?

I too suspect a bug in the software (the fatc 'logic improvent' but they seem totally uninterested in investigating that possibility.

In all likelihood, many owners probably won't notice unless they are paying attention to energy consumption, as the heat 'works' since the PTC still operates. Interesting the system won't mix PTC and heat pump.. It's all or nothing now, with the heat pump only operating when it is +15c

 

[notfred]

Just to confirm, I have a 2016 which has not had the FATC update. Today I was driving around with the outside temperature around 0C and the inside set at 20.5C, and I could hear the compressor operating as I slowed down.

I have recently noticed that my AC is basically not working, compressor is running but a lot of hissing noise in the dashboard (wasn't there before) and the vents are not cold. Being in Ottawa, I'm going to wait for warmer temperatures next spring before taking it in to the dealer and complaining about it.

 

[2016Electric]

Just to confirm, I have a 2016 which has not had the FATC update. Today I was driving around with the outside temperature around 0C and the inside set at 20.5C, and I could hear the compressor operating as I slowed down.

I have recently noticed that my AC is basically not working, compressor is running but a lot of hissing noise in the dashboard (wasn't there before) and the vents are not cold. Being in Ottawa, I'm going to wait for warmer temperatures next spring before taking it in to the dealer and complaining about it.

Hi Notfred,

Your refrigerant is likely low. That is exactly what mine did.. Prior to the first repair, and subsequent to every botched repair attempt. Lots of ramping up and down of the compressor as the car started and stopped moving (when set to cool). Lots of hissing as a combination of liquid / gas state / refrigerant oil shoots through the oriface into the evaporator. Quite a noticeable sound inside the vehicle.

But, thanks for the info. This is incredibly frustrating as the heat pump is absolutely not working, and kia simply refuses to acknowledge it.

At this point, given you have not had the FATC update, I'm more convinced the is a software bug that was introduced in the update they performed.

Are you planning to have the update performed? If so, I strongly suggest you thoroughly document the operation of your heat pump at given temperatures inside and outside the vehicle.. That you can hear the compressor running, and the compressor discharge line is hot (it's easy to touch it as it is right by the brake fluid resivoir).

If you have the update applied at some point after documenting prior operation, and the system then stops working properly in heat mode, I would absolutely be willing to work with you on this to pressure kia to deal with nonsese. I am located not too far away, in the GTA.

 

[notfred]

I'm going to wait for the spring and take it in and get everything done in one shot.

 

[2016Electric]

I'm going to wait for the spring and take it in and get everything done in one shot.

Makes sense... though you may find that with low refrigerant (if it is low), your heating efficiency may be decreased somewhat.

As for the FATC update...

https://memegenerator.net/instance/60083634/lost-in-space-b9-danger-will-robinson-danger-danger

 

[Goochj]

Sorry to hear of your issue and lack of support from Kia. I have a 2016 that has had the OBC software update. Charges to 94%. As well as the compressor replaced about a year and a half ago when the AC would not work. Was at the dealership for just over a month. As replacing the compressor did not solve the problem. Was told ultimately that it was a harness connector pin that was bad. Probably unrelated to your issue. Dealership also complained they had to purchase EV specific diagnostics equipment to find the issue.

The heat pump function appears to be working well. I have been hesitant to go in for the parking brake update mostly because it will be a days adventure as I will need to charge to make the trip back from the dealer with no DC fast Chargers on route. Hoping Canadian Tire gets a few more built out. But reading your thread I would have some concern about having the FATC update possibly applied at the same time.

I'll try to document the cold weather operation at least with a video of the compressor running when the temperature dips back down for good measure.

 

[DrivingForce]

Sorry noob here, but how would I know if my heat pump were working? I have a 2016 + so it should have a heat pump.

 

[2016Electric]

Sorry noob here, but how would I know if my heat pump were working? I have a 2016 + so it should have a heat pump.

You would notice the following when the heat is turned on, and while the energy monitor in the vehicle shows current energy consumption of the HVAC system > 0.00 KW

1) Radiator fan will be running
2) Some compressor noise should be evident
3) Silver coloured (aluminum portion) of the high pressure refrigerant discharge line from the compressor that runs through the firewall, near the brake fluid reservoir will be warm or hot to the touch

To this point, I have been 100% unsuccessful in my attempts to have kia (dealerships and kia Canada) address this problem. In fact, they refuse to even acknowledge there is a problem. Their position is that since hot air comes out of the vents when the heat is turned on, all is well! (pure nonsense). Sure.. the PTC works... but that isn't the problem! Now with the chilling temperatures here in Ontario, I have really started noticing the much higher draw of the PTC, and range is being impacted quite a bit, especially being stuck in GTA (Toronto) traffic.. this means having the heat on for a long time, which exaggerates the impact of a low efficiency heat source (the PTC vs heat pump).

At this time I am trying to have a dealership reverse the FATC software update that was done in September... but so far, zero luck (even though I am offering to pay for this out of pocket). They seem to be VERY unwilling and uninterested in dealing with this... and this is at two dealerships.

I really like (liked?) this little electric kia, but given my service experiences with this vehicle over the last 5 years, I can no longer recommend it to anyone I know. The terrible quality service I have received has been BY FAR the worst I have ever experienced, and I have a reasonable base upon which to draw that comparison.... Over close to the last THREE DECADES, I have owned many domestic (North American) and foreign vehicles (German and Japanese). The next closest in poor service and quality was General Motors, and even they at least acknowledged and resolved the defect in the vehicle, after only 2-3 attempts. That seemed pretty bad at the time, but compared to this, that was NOTHING.

I am quite concerned for the others that have purchased a vehicle from kia as a result of my recommendation and demonstration of the car. Before this, I was quite an advocate, but now I can only hope they fare better than I.

My apologies for the rant, but I am very frustrated by this series of experiences and interactions with kia... their behaviour is more in line with what I might have expected from a shady used car lot - certainly not from an international auto manufacturer. I am still considering how to proceed all things considered, and have a few options going forward, but ideally they'd just fix the car!

 

[IanL]

I don't know how things go in Canada, but on this side of the pond, we find a solicitors letter can be quite effective.

Another possibility is an independent engineer's report, quoting chapter and verse from KIA's own literature on how the heat pump should run I don't know where to get that).

 

[DrivingForce]

Thank you for the explanation. I only paid about $14k US for mine so I have low expectations. I suspect my heat pump is not working and I have not noticed any compressor sounds. I will try feeling the refrigerant line when the heat is on. I have a warranty for perhaps 13 or 14 more months.

 

[Goochj]

I took a quick video to get the sound of the heat pump running at -2 deg C with two different heat settings. I have not yet had the software update.

https://youtu.be/P84u8uIQ468

https://youtu.be/RKmKVicREc8

 

[2016Electric]

I took a quick video to get the sound of the heat pump running at -2 deg C with two different heat settings. I have not yet had the software update.

https://youtu.be/P84u8uIQ468

https://youtu.be/RKmKVicREc8

Thanks for doing that... Yup, I can confirm mine does NOT do this anymore (that's how it worked before kia 'fixed it')

To the poster that mentioned a solicitor's letter, I have considered and looked into that, but that does cost money (not a small amount at least around here), with no guarantee of outcome. Still may go that route.. Will see. Maybe kia will read this forum and suddenly decide to do the right thing and fix the car! :lol:

 

[DrivingForce]

I do recall hearing a noise like that when I first got the car. Then I took it in for a recall and they updated the BMS. I haven't heard the noise since.

 

[ksoul2084]

Thanks for posting those videos. Since my AC compressor had no refrigerant until this summer I had never heard the compressor before then. Thought mine must be on the way out given the blaring noise it generates, but nope, I guess that is normal. lol. Too bad they couldn't use a quieter compressor on an otherwise quiet car.

Anyway, I heard my compressor running the other day while driving with the heat on, so I guess the heat pump was engaged at that point. 2016 with the latest sw installed. I'll try to to record the circumstances when I hear it in the future for reference.

 

[DrivingForce]

I do recall hearing a noise like that when I first got the car. Then I took it in for a recall and they updated the BMS. I haven't heard the noise since.

Correction, i just verified that my heat pump is indeed working.

 

[JejuSoul]

-
GoochJ - thanks for the 2 videos. I have never heard that sound before. But today I opened up the hood and checked. Yes it clicks.
I have a 2015 with the original BMS software.
(Am puzzled why I didn't hear this sound a few weeks ago when I checked that the pipe was warm. Amazing what you can hear when you know what you are listening for.)

With the heating on and the ambient temperature 12C I see this.



By turning the heating off I see .33kW on this screen (=330W).

Looking at Torque with the heating on I see 449.5W. It fluctuates but is slightly lower than the reading in the car.
It went down to about 290W when I turned the heating off.

-----

Here's a diagram of the heat pump system. It is the compressor that pumps the refrigerant gas / liquid around the system.

see - Kia Soul EV (PS EV) 2015-2020 Service Manual / Heating,Ventilation, Air Conditioning / Heat Pump /



-

 

[IanL]

I have a suggestion to make. I think the HVAC software has some "unwanted features". I have noticed that it doesn't always do what it should when I press buttons, and I have got it to behave, eventually, by pressing the AUTO button several times. Why that should be, I have no idea. Anyway, the suggestion is to try pressing the AUTO button multiple times, to see whether the heat pump responds.

Could be a cheap fix