Battery Ageing Model

[GizmoEV]

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Would be nice to see more data from people who have had the BMS reset.

I just updated my spreadsheet with data from my 2016 Blue. The last three entries for the 2016 White and Blue are after the BMS reset. If I had realized that the BMS data was going to be reset I would have collected data on the pack immediately before and after the BMS update. If it would be useful I could probably get a reasonable estimate of the values just before the update so the charge data would be cumulative.

FWIW, the Blue Soul EV has a full charge on L2 at least five mornings/week and a full charge 2-3 afternoons/week. The commute is typically a little over 60 miles at 60-65mph. The last reading was at 40,542 miles, Min Det = 9.7, Max Det = 11.3, SOH = 26.9kWh, 99.5%.

 

[JejuSoul]

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Another good report. SOH= 100% after 3 1/2 years and 38,000km
From Kia Soul EV UK page on Facebook.

"Very happy. Just had 3rd year service for £59. Very pleased with battery report....23920 miles."

It is really useful to see reports such as these from outside the usual list of drivers.

There are about 20 vehicles we have data for that all have very little deterioration.
But this is a very non-random group.
All care about the life of the battery, and report their battery stats.

There is also a group of about 20 cars that have had rapid deterioration and had to have a new battery.
This is also a very non-random group.
All live in very hot climates, or drive their cars very fast for long distances every day.
We have no battery data for this group.

The interesting question is which of these 2 groups is more likely to represent the average user.
I hope I am right in assuming that it is the first group and the big majority of our cars have little deterioration.
It's a fairly easy assumption - there's a 1000 times more Soul EVs in Norway than there are in Arizona.

 

[SiLiZiUMM]

Yesterday, a friend of mine with Soul EV #2588 went to my house to check his vehicle with Torque. He suspected more battery degradation as we was doing about 1%/km on the highway last week (+26C outside). This is the kind of efficiency we see here in winter. However, the stat reported in the vehicle is good (about 16kWh/100km). It is a MY15 located in Canada. This car actually has traveled the whole county coast to coast :mrgreen:

Last year (May 2017), he got SOH=94.2% (min det=16.7, max det=15). Odo was around 95,000km at this time.

This year, SOH=86% (min det=14.7%, max det=33.3%). Odo is at 128,908km.

I added his vehicle data in the Google Spreadsheet (for the CAN messages).

 

[JejuSoul]

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That Max deterioration has jumped really high whereas Min deterioration has gone down from a year earlier suggests that one of the cells has gone bad.

Did you look at the cell voltages?

I suspect if you take the car to Kia they will replace the whole battery, rather than try to take it apart and replace just the one bad cell.

 

[SiLiZiUMM]

It would have been better to have the car at 100% SOC for this test (it was at 51.5% SOC BMS). All 96 cells read 0xBC (3.76V).
I have all CAN data if needed.

He believes when he bought the car that the warranty was at 200,000km/80% but he needs to check the documentation. When I bought mine, it is 8 years/160,000km/70%.

 

[JejuSoul]

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I think when a cell starts to fail it widens the voltage spread, so to see the faulty cell we would need to measure the voltages at either 0% SOC or 100% SOC. On our cars once one cell goes bad, it quickly causes an entire module to give out. I think T esla is the only battery maker that allows the BMS to 'quarantine' the bad cell from the rest of the pack. I predict this car will get a new battery pack in the next six months. Keep us posted.

The battery warranty in Canada for 2016 models is 8 years, 160,000km to 70% SOH as you state.
See - http://www.kia.ca/content/Owners/warranty/2016_Kia_Warranty_Manual_en.pdf.
The 2015 warranty booklet doesn't have the EV section.

Note the EV system warranty covers all the major EV systems including the High Voltage battery for failure.
There is also a battery capacity warranty. It is this that has the 70% limit.
These two sections have the same time and mileage limits in Canada.

The Korean warranty is 10 years, 160,000km to 70% SOH.
The United States is 10 years, 100,000 miles to 70% SOH.
The Canadian warranty is 8 years, 160,000km to 70% SOH
Europe is 7 years, 150,000km to 70% SOH.

 

[kmaluo]

Just took in my 2016 with 40k miles. Had the vehicle for 2.5 yrs. I'm in Hawaii with daily temps in the 70s-80s. SOH at Kia was 68.5. The service reps gave me the following screen shots and said the Kia tech line was still walking the service department through various resets and re-connections before approving a new battery. Based on the attachments, is there anything that may help or hinder a battery replacement?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpSsvL0DAJRJK8LqvWrv3U0fdGG0E5LO/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bm1gpkbL_z9-krYJbNYljrMsTlOpkAlZ/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jU0_94wNywRUXFCLmZ2YHPuxdtV9Wg57/view?usp=sharing

 

[JejuSoul]

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That your battery is showing less than 70% SOH is all that is required for you to get a new battery.

I live on an island with much the same temperatures as you. Soul EVs do fine here.
Did you buy this car second hand from Arizona?

 

[kmaluo]

Got it brand new in Hawaii. I do have a few miles of hills everyday, usually climbing them under 60 mph though. I noticed my capacity seemed to drastically tank a few months ago.

 

[JejuSoul]

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A dramatic and sudden drop in range is most likely a cell failure, rather than normal degradation. As I mentioned just above about the Canadian car. Once one cell goes bad the rest of the battery soon follows.

Let us know what happens with the replacement pack.

 

[edman98]

Great thread. Our 2015 Soul EV is at ~44kmi / 50% - full charge = ~50mi.

How long does it take to replace? We were told ~6 weeks. Will ask for SOH and present warranty of 200kmi/80%. Thanks!

 

[JejuSoul]

..Our 2015 Soul EV is at ~44kmi / 50% - full charge = ~50mi...

Good Luck. And please post again when you get the info from Kia.

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The reading you want is the SOH.
Seen here on a car from Texas.

...2015 Soul Ev with 38k miles. Currently full charge is 80 miles and 4.1-4.3 mi/kwh.
The car came from Georgia, bought in Texas in December with~32k miles 93 GOM...

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Another 2015 car of the exact same age in France - SOH de nos Soul EV dans le temps et les km (à épingler)
A lot of the best results for minimal degradation are coming from France.

relevé de ce matin à >80500kms
CCC: 9951 Ah
CDC: 10149Ah
CEC: 3729kWh
CED: 3688 kWh
SOH: 99,55% 26,88kWh
tension des cellules 4,12V
tension batterie 396,3V
Température batterie : 21°C
SOC bms: 95%
SOC display: 100%

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Even better is this car in Slovenia - http://evsvet.eu/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=803
He talks of SOH = 90% before a battery reset.

In the Spring. Odo 108,292km, GOM 203km


In the Winter. Odo 100,000km, GOM 111km


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And another car from Slovenia

Damijan Hrovat - I have 76k km =47k miles on my 2016 Soul EV with SOH around 97,5% (new car/battery SOH is 110%) everyday GOM is145km / 90 miles, in summer with EV driving it goes up to 200km (my record is 247km with 14% left)

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Two cars in Germany show 100% SOH at their 60,000km service. - 4. Inspektion 60.000er Soul EV


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[Elmil]

It seems the picture host service I have been using has changed their base url, so all my posted pics are gone
I'll give it another try.

Here are my latest deterioration numbers, at 102,000 km:

Max det: 11,2%
Min det: 7,5%
Avg SOH: 100,7%

Avg SOH plotted from the start:
In this one, the blue dots are readings from GDS/KDS at Kia service.


Max/Min deterioration plotted from the start:

The Min deterioration value sometimes jumps down to unrealisticly low values. I think this is also seen in data from other cars.

Note that the data points in the graphs above represent ALL deterioration changes since I started collecting them - for example, the lack of data during more than 3 months this winter is not because I didn't read it, but because there was no changes during that time.

 

[droxtal]

For what it's worth, one more data point from a Canadian 2016 car just about 3 yrs old. All numbers from the dealer printout:

May 2016
ODO ~13,000 km
SOC 65.5 %
SOH 100.0%
Battery DC Voltage 372.4 V
Max Cell Voltage 3.88 V
Min Cell Voltage 3.86 V
Battery Module Temps 17-18 degC

Jul 2018
ODO ~44,000 km
SOC 41.0 %
SOH 100.0%
Battery DC Voltage 352.3 V
Max Cell Voltage 3.66 V
Min Cell Voltage 3.66 V
Battery Module Temps 29 degC

The car is driven "normally", ie not babied, but not pushed either, and as you can see does around 50 km/day. I generally stick to the 80/20 rule and occasionally charge to 100%, almost exclusively on a L2 charger.

 

[ZuinigeRijder]

My Kia Soul EV is almost 4 years old (26 August 2014) and had a check at the garage (85.000 km) here in the Netherlands.
I asked for a KDS State of Heath readout. The SOH% was reported as 94.2%.
With Torque i measured 5 days ago a value of 96.45 (Avg Det 13.6, Max Det 14.6, Min Det. 12.5).
My BMS was updated, so my min and max deterioration values are again at 0% (second time).
So I cannot compare exactly with the SOH readout (I did not measure with Torque just before I left the car at the garage).

Here is the screenshot of today:

The SOH readout of almost 2 years ago (9 November 2016) with 40.000 km driven was 96.4%. So a loss of approx. 2% for 45.000 km.
Here is the screenshot of 2016:

I bought the car one year old with 10.000 km driven and with the first readout of Torque it already had 10% battery degradation. So it looks like the battery was not so well nursed.

In the Netherlands the warranty is 7 years or 150.000 km and 70%.
I made several graphs of my readouts, with the warranty line included (the bumps are the BMS reset to 110%):

 

[JejuSoul]

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Thanks for the new data. Good to see all cars here are doing so well.
My 38 month old car is at 48,000km and 102% SOH. I have never had a BMS reset.

...The Min deterioration value sometimes jumps down to unrealistically low values. I think this is also seen in data from other cars...

Yes. Mine for instance has always shown this behavior. It did a particularly extreme spike down in the Min value just last week.



The Max values are blue, Min values pink. Yellow is the average of the Min and Max with a trendline sloping upwards.
I measure every 250km regardless of whether the data changes or not.

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Here is a graph showing the deterioration data of 20 different cars that have posted on this site. One point for each car. The blue dots / teal trendline. This seems to be a curve where more deterioration happens in the first six months before leveling off.

But - for perspective I show the warranty line (red) and the Phoenix data (yellow). It has been reported that 14 out of 14 Soul EVs in Phoenix Arizona have required a new battery in their first 3 years.



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[ekhaat]

My Nov 2015 Soul EV 74232km, according to torque:
SOH: 91% (24.57kWh)
Min det: 17.9
Max det: 20.1
SOC Display: 84%
Should I worry? I get around 150 km on the GOM at a full charge.
Cheers

 

[Iguesssoulmanistaken]

Hi Guys!

I'm just new here, and am a big fan of the Soul EV. Not only to own, but I have a dealership importing EVs from the US and reselling in Alberta, Canada where there are no rebates. Anyway, I was reading another thread about the battery not doing so well in the HOT climates - Pheonix - they all had to be replaced (is that still the case?). Now, I see this thread and it seems there are some good results out there. I cannot read all 35 pages of this thread, so am just wondering how these batteries are doing. Since I'm buying out of California largely, there may be some who have been 'cooked.'

Also, I believe there is an optional battery heating kit which can be installed on these vehicles - anyone have any experience with them? I'm curious too about what is stock, any heating at all? I understand the cooling is with fans - not liquid cooling, so I assume heating is via some kind of thermal blanket, or....?

I have other questions and will post in the appropriate place (I hope).

Thanks, Jim

 

[Kish]

Jim, no Soul EV sold in Cali comes with a battery heater. Not sure what's offered in other US states, but I do know it's standard up there in Canada. No idea if the battery heater can even be installed aftermarket. AFAIK, there is no stock heating or cooling. Everything is done through sucking in ambient cabin air into the battery pack using the fan in the hatch. As with extreme heat in AZ, extreme cold below freezing in Canada is not a good idea for the Soul EV.

 

[guiacan]

New data points for the number junkies

2018-04-03 (yyyy-mm-dd as it should always be )
odo : 13675 km (8500 mil)
SOH : 28,4 kWh (105,1%)
deterioration (min/max/avg) : 2,6 / 7,2 / 4,9
ccc/cdc : 9196 / 9411 ah
cec/ced : 3425 / 3397 kWh
optime : 1061

2018-04-27 (BMS RESET)
odo : 14591 km (9066 mil)
SOH : 29,7 kWh (110%)
det (min/max/avg) : 0 / 0 / 0
ccc/cdc : 20 / 18 ah
cec/ced : 8 / 7 kWh
optime : 2

2018-05-26
odo : 15642 km (9720 mil)
SOH : 29,2 kWh (108,1%)
det (min/max/avg) : 0 / 3,8 / 1,9
ccc/cdc : 669 / 678 ah
cec/ced : 246 / 244 kWh
optime : 69

2018-06-02
odo : 16301 km (10129 mil)
SOH : 28,3 kWh (104,9%)
det (min/max/avg) : 4,2 / 5,9 / 5
ccc/cdc : 994 / 1035 ah
cec/ced : 367 / 374 kWh
optime : 94

2018-07-06
odo : 18121 km (11260 mil)
SOH : 28,6 kWh (105,8%)
det (min/max/avg) : 3,2 / 5,2 / 4,2
ccc/cdc : 2046 / 2094 ah
cec/ced : 749 / 748 kWh
optime : 178

2018-08-23
odo : 20477 km (12724 mil)
SOH : 27,7 kWh (102,7%)
det (min/max/avg) : 6,3 / 8,4 / 7,3
ccc/cdc : 3373 / 3440 ah
cec/ced : 1237 / 1233 kWh
optime : 294