Battery Ageing Model

[dherres057]

Merry Christmas to all you SOUL EV Owners!

Heres the breakdown. I purchased the car a couple weeks ago from a dealership in NC and brought it back to Dayton, OH.

It has 40,531 miles on it currently - I made sure all tires were property inflated a few days ago.

CONDITIONS -
38* F on a nice sunny day - (B-Mode and ECO turned on) Only used the heat for 25% of the journey
Did my best to never exceed 68mph

Traveled 49.9 miles and the car came back on 11% battery

If my math is right I have a 55 mile range ~

Do I have a bad battery? I was expecting at least an 80 mile range on this vehicle...

I can also post a screenshot from my JuiceBox Pro app with battery charging stats.

 

[Kish]

Happy Christmas! Yes, please do upload your juicebox stats. However, we do need more data. Specifically, CED and CEC from torque pro. Then, do your range test once more and perform the calculations. Be sure to take screenshots before test, after test, and after recharging to 100%.

kWh used while driving
= total kWh discharged (CED) - total kWh charged (regen) (CEC)
= (226 kWh - 198 kWh) - (210 kWh - 208 kWh)
= 28 kWh - 2 kWh
= 26 kWh

kWh used to charge
= CEC (after charging) - CEC (before charging).
= 237 kWh - 210 kWh
= 27 kwh

In this example, the car has a brand new battery 30kWh battery (27 kWh usable). It consumed 26kWh from the battery to go from 100%->1%. It pulled in 27kWh to recharge from 1%->100%. OBC/Juicebox is 92% efficient, so it should show around 29kWh from the wall consumed:

 

[GizmoEV]

Did my best to never exceed 68mph

That is a big part of your problem right there. When you drive a car with the aerodynamics of a brick, speed really affects range. Try 60mph. With our 2016 EV+ with nearly 54k miles the battery is at 98% SOH and in cold weather is getting only 75 miles range. Just today my wife drove to work an back, 65 mi, and arrived home with 8 miles range left. The temperature in the morning was in the low 30s F and low 40s F on the way home. This is with climate control set to auto at 74F.

If she had driven 68mph she would likely not have made the round trip.

 

[JejuSoul]

-
Some good news from California. Most California Clean Air Decal Holders Losing Special HOV Lane Privilege

There should be fewer Soul EVs being driven fast in the HOV lanes now. From many threads on this forum it seems the primary cause of battery degradation is long fast commutes. The Soul EV does really badly when driven fast. It was not designed for this purpose. But people were getting cheap 3 year leases to take benefit of the HOV access. And given the fact that the EV media hypes the fact that EVs can drive fast, most people probably don't know that fast driving is not sustainable .

Sales figures for the Soul EV in the entire US via insideEVs.
I'd like to see the ratio that is in California. I think the sales focus switched to the NW in 2016

2014 - 359
2015 - 1,015
2016 - 1,728
2017 - 2,157
2018 - 1,134

 

[Kish]

the primary cause of battery degradation is long fast commutes.

If we're talking about the same CA here, then this isn't quite right. The average speed in HOV lane in CA during commute time is maybe 35mph, vs 15mph outside Weekends are another story.

 

[JejuSoul]

...If we're talking about the same CA here, then this isn't quite right. The average speed in HOV lane in CA during commute time is maybe 35mph, vs 15mph outside Weekends are another story...

Thanks for pointing out my obvious mistake. If the HOV lanes were running smoothly, there would be no reason to limit the number of cars in them.

 

[JejuSoul]

-
There's a car in Germany that is waiting for a battery replacement. - Soul 2015 lädt bis 94% nach BMS Update / Antrag Akkutausch
We have some Torque data from that car. He is one of the regulars on the German forum.




According to Google translate "" I have learned that not the whole "box" but only the battery packs are replaced,""

 

[Elmil]

The screenshot on the previous post made me check some statistics from my old 2015 Soul. The interesting numbers are the Max and Min Deterioration Cell numbers. They show Max det #2 and Min det #8.

My car had a change in deterioration numbers at 148 occations. The Min det was #8 in 76%, the Max det was #2 in 28% and 22% had both as above.

Coincidence..? Probably, but...

 

[Oinq]

This was indeed a great reading, I want to thank to all the participants.

So a quick sum up of my data

My car is a Soul EV from October 2016 and I bought it in the beginning of February 2019 with 16573 km on the screen.
In the day I went to dealer to look on the car, I saw in the driving history on the infotainment system that the car has been driven almost every day until May 2018, then in the following summer and for 9 months it stood still with less than 100 km during that time. also took a few screenshots of the actual data in the time.
For a future reference (this did I also with the Peugeot iOn I had before) my normal speed is 70 kph, 90 if i'm on the highway, cruising behind a truck; I ALWAYS use cruise control, everywhere. I drive on B mode, and I try to predict traffic, so no hard brakes, or full gas (except if i'm first in traffic light and the guy on the second lane thinks he has a fast car ).
We have a week or two in the summer above 30°C, else it's 25°C for 2 months, the winter snows for maybe a week or two; so I assume we have a mild climate here in Belgium, near the sea, so always flat driving.
I might drive 50 to 100 km on the weekend. During weekdays I charge the car everyday at 2am, automatically stopping at 80%, auto heater is on set to 20°C during maybe 4 or 5 months per year, half hour before I leave for a 6 km commute. Car is parked outside, on summer it goes under the trees for shade. End of the day 6 km back home.
My (Open)EVSE is set to 6A on 230V, so about 1.4 Kw charger. (BTW, what is your opinion? Should I raise this power setting?, I do it slowly believing it warms up less the battery)

I have been reading about spreadsheets but can find none. Is there one I can have that already plots this info? I plan to take data 1 or 2 times per month and of course, share it with you guys. @JejuSoul will you share your spreadsheet? Than I'm sure I take the useful data and can set a Torque screen for that, and reserving the other screens for other occasions.

I made on the last year on my iOn about 4 000 km, so definitely, my battery will not die by EV km, but for other whatever reason; age probably; and this car might be an interesting car to follow because of this.

ohh boy, I wrote soo much


Nuno

 

[Oinq]

Now the actual data
This is from I went to have a look before buy.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/VHY1WDWzW7crG8S68

https://photos.app.goo.gl/dmrMhhkWh62PHAn26

https://photos.app.goo.gl/i2jBfRjJnpVhTLwdA

This is from last weekend


https://photos.app.goo.gl/9Kj8Zyi4z4ZszsoN7

https://photos.app.goo.gl/iBb26vEdWqev6dr69

https://photos.app.goo.gl/znDvAoCKpGp8ytuV7

This is from yesterday, during an L3

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BJ6dFiL87g7u8hFt9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/jzXarmKQqjjw9kPQ6

 

[notfred]

It has had a BMS reset, the CCC and CDC have dropped between the first and second samples. This was probably the dealer doing the updates for the firmware. You may find that the SOH drops back to what it was before.

I think you are overly cautious only charging at 6A, especially if you fast charge it at other times. If you think about when driving, 7kW is nothing.

 

[JejuSoul]

...I think you are overly cautious only charging at 6A, ....

I'm not so sure. The two cars on this thread that have the lowest deterioration numbers are the two that regularly charge at around 2kW. The sample size is too small to make any confident conclusion, but having a third car in that sample seems a good idea. I too am considering swapping out my E VSE that only charges at 32A to one that allows multiple settings (32A when I want to charge 'normally', and much lower when I am happy to let it charge all night or all weekend.)

 

[ZuinigeRijder]

The screenshot on the previous post made me check some statistics from my old 2015 Soul. The interesting numbers are the Max and Min Deterioration Cell numbers. They show Max det #2 and Min det #8.

My car had a change in deterioration numbers at 148 occations. The Min det was #8 in 76%, the Max det was #2 in 28% and 22% had both as above.

Coincidence..? Probably, but...

For me the max deterioration cells were mainly #1 till #6 and some #42/#43. The min deterioration cells were mainly #49, #59, #15

 

[Oinq]

I think you are overly cautious only charging at 6A, especially if you fast charge it at other times.

This is the experience I had with my Peugeot iOn, on the iOn foruns there was some people doing this, and they had the lower deterioration.
Also on the iOn, deterioration was like a clock, it came down every 27 to 32 days, always the same amount.
In that Portuguese forum, people are very confident the heat kills the batteries.

I fast charge when/if I need to; on the iOn I fast charged 3 times in a year, I don't believe this is expressive for degradation.
If I need to drive more far away I take the Niro

In the moment I'm limited to my electric installation, I can't draw more than 10A from the plug where i'm connected, maybe this weekend I have the time to change the wires, and then I can go to the 28/30A the car supports. But I still plan to keep the 6A as my charging rule, higher if needed, but before raise the current I can increase the number of charging hours per day since I only charge about 5 hours; but with a short commute as mine I can have only 40% on Monday that the 80% will be caught up during the week. As an example I left the car yesterday in the garage with 54%, it charged to 69% this morning, I arrived home with 66%; so tomorrow morning will be close of the 80%

Well this is the plan, maybe you guys can show me I'm wrong and plans can be changed


Any spreadsheets someone would like to share?


Thank you for all the input
Nuno

 

[JejuSoul]

-
I have had two notable upward spikes in my deterioration numbers over the last four years. Both times the values initially spiked and inverted, but came back down again in the months afterwards. The Min and Max readings have not inverted any other time. Recently a German user has seen the same spike and inversion.

An old post of mine - Battery Ageing Model :- October 2016

I drove fast over the mountain 110km/h, decelerating hard before the speed cameras. Very unusual driving speed and style for my car.

And another one - Battery Ageing Model :- April 2017

There was a spike up in my readings a month ago. It occurred immediately after driving fast 100km/h over a mountain.
The Min and Max reading initially reversed. This is the second time I have seen this in 3 years.
Both times were driving fast over the mountain.
It is something I rarely do, so I doubt this is coincidental.

Am having a chat with German user ToyToyToy. His car has also shown the Min and Max reading reversed.

Last week I was checking the values and was happy to see that Max-Det was 15.8%, which is almost the same as per end of December with 15.7%, although January was a bit cold over here (at night a few degrees below zero). Today, I was at a fast c harger (haven't been there for at least 2 months) and checked the values again: 18.3/18.3/18.4 (Max/Avg/Min). And yes, Min was higher than Max, which is very strange.
I was shocked to loose almost as much capacity as during the entire last year with 20,000 km. Hopefully, just the BMS is mis-calibrated and will recover after the next calibration.

...My conclusion is that driving very fast, or just fast up a steep hill causes high battery stress which can degrade the battery much faster than normal. This is not a problem if you only do it occasionally.
And yes I think the deterioration values on your car will go back down just like mine did.

Now that you mention it.... just before I took the reading I was driving quite fast, 130-140 km/h, for 15 minutes or so, since we were late for an appointment. This probably caused the drop of the values.

 

[User 295]

I'm coming to the end of my lease in May, so I thought I'd check out my battery's state before I decide what to do and contribute to the collective. Here's its info (HT to SoulEV2016 for the commentary's format that I borrowed):

Vehicle: 2015 Kia Soul EV (luxury model with Chademo option), in service as of May 2015, Manufacturer sticker shows 04/15 assembly

I conducted the 100% to <10% to 100% SOC procedure and used OBD Fusion for iOS and LELink adapter (I don't have an Android device) to gather these three measurements:

*Measurement 1
Odometer (km) 86964
Display SOC (%) 100
BMS SOC (%) 95
Max Cell Det (%) 23.5
Min Cell Det (%) 23.3
CEC (kWh) 1739.2 (I'm not sure why these are low?)
CED (kWh) 1675.2
CCC (Ah) not recorded
CCD (Ah) not recorded
GOM (km) 122
Travelled (km) 0

*Measurement 2
Odometer (km) 87083
Display SOC (%) 7
BMS SOC (%) 9
Max Cell Det (%) 23.5
Min Cell Det (%) 23.3
CEC (kWh) 1744.2
CED (kWh) 1705.2
CCC (Ah) not recorded
CCD (Ah) not recorded
GOM (km) 7
Travelled (km) 119.1

*Measurement 3
Odometer (km) 87083
Display SOC (%) 100
BMS SOC (%) 95
Max Cell Det (%) 20.7
Min Cell Det (%) 19.0
CEC (kWh) 1769.4
CED (kWh) 1705.6
CCC (Ah) 2413.3
CCD (Ah) 2849.5
GOM (km) 120
Travelled (km) 0

Climate:
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada - pretty EV friendly. Rarely below 0C (coldest -10C once) and rarely above 30C. The vehicle is stored in garage at home and at work that usually does not fall below 10C or go above 25C. I don't do pre-heating or cooling.

Driving style:
- Mix of highway (100-125km/h) and city (40-60 km/hr)
- Typical weekday is 70km round trip.
- Typical weekend is 30-100km per day.
- My unabashed driving style is lead foot on the accelerator and feather on the break - EVs are fun, life is short, why hold back.
- I use auto for heater and AC to maintain 20C year round

Charging behaviour:
- I have the EVSEUpgrade, and am fortunate to do almost all my charging at work at about 2.5 kW for free.
-Weekday charging cycle: Arrive in the morning - charge to 100% by mid afternoon, leave early evening, arrive home with 75-80% SOC, park overnight at home no charging, drive back to work, arriving with 50-60% SOC. So, it has been at 100% daily for 2-4 hours.
-Weekend I'll keep it below 80% SOC if I do need to charge on our regular 7kW EVSE and do it at 2AM, but I try to hold out to arrive at work on Monday with >40% SOC.
-Chademo: Less than 10 times over the past four years, just haven't had need although we're fortunate to have many here in BC.
-Technical issues over its life: the on-board charger failed in February 2017 - had to wait a month for a replacement. Not fun.

So - any thoughts on how my stats compare to the cohort of other Soul EVs?
Any idea why my CEC CED are so low?

Thanks in advance, and do let me know if there's other information that I should be sharing...

 

[JejuSoul]

...
So - any thoughts on how my stats compare to the cohort of other Soul EVs?
...

Your car is not doing as well compared to the other cars on this thread. - reason = your lead foot.
But you are doing way better than cars in places like Arizona and Texas - reason = BC climate is near perfect for EVs.

In the graph below your car is roughly marked with the purple cross. You're above the red warranty line, which means it won't qualify for a new battery.

 

[Oinq]

This last night I tried to force a calibration on the battery; no success.
5 days ago I used a fast charger to 94% and in the last 5 days I used the battery until yesterday I arrived home with 18%.
After some math, I raised the current from my EVSE from 6 to 12A and over night I took the battery to 100%
This morning around 6 it finished charging, but still no deterioration values.
I think my error was I haven't started with 100%.

I think I read somewhere the process is 100 lower than 20 and to 100% again.

My question is, must this be done in one day? Or since this morning I was on 100% I can take it to lower than 20 in a few days and then, back to 100?

I don't drive that much, so if it must be done in one day, I need today to make a bigger drive...

 

[Oinq]

I'm trying again today

 

[Oinq]

So this time it worked good. For a calibration to occur we must start from 100%, go below 20%, and charge back to 100%.
I'm not really sure if they are real values, since the top 50% of the battery was on highway on 130km/h with very strong wind (>50km/h wind), the other 30% was already on more normal roads, 70 km/h country roads...

So my values to date:

Km,date,Accumulative_operating_time_s,Accumulative_charge_power_kw,Accumulative_discharge_power_kw,Accumulative_charge_current_Ah,Accumulative_discharge_current_Ah,Max_cell_Deterioration_pct,Min_cell_Deterioration_pct
16550,23012019,2235,3578,3510,9855,9885,4,2
16573,30012019,19,33,46,90,128,0,0
-,03022019,27,40,49,108,135,0,0
16856,08022019,51,68,68,185,189,0,0
-,9022019,53,74,76,200,212,0,0
-,9022019,57,90,88,245,246,0,0
17198,18022019,88,130,128,352,359,0,0
17387,25022019,408139s,168,160,459,448,0,0
17527,08032019,453731s,178,189,487,531,0,0
17758,14032019,557450,251,242,686,682,6,4