Battery Ageing Model

[2016Electric]

My stats as taken today, roughly 12,500 km

 

[ZuinigeRijder]

I have finally made some time to gather my deterioration numbers. Not good :-(

I used ZuinigeRijder's spreadsheet (b.t.w. an obvious error I noticed in cell K25 ... I did not check the rest of the 01Feb2016 version of "KiaSoulEV2101_2105.xls" for other errors) and plugged in my data from alOBD Terminal.

Yes, this was wrong. I fixed the cell K25 in the spreadsheet. For the ones who do not know about the spreadsheet:

I used the free Android App "alOBD terminal", but I have a bluetooth dongle, see this post:

http://www.mykiasoulev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=135&p=3081#p3081 (Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:42 pm)

And you can paste the values in the spreadsheet in this post:
http://www.mykiasoulev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=135&p=3085#p3085 (Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:51 am)

I did made a spreadsheet, so people can copy/paste the hex data to the spreadsheet and then the computed values are shown.
You can download the spreadsheet here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35461579/KiaSoulEV/KiaSoulEV2101_2105.xls

For people having an Android phone, also Torque Pro can be used.

 

[Leafer]

Thank you ZuinigeRijder and JejuSoul.

This Deterioration issue has been bothering me, so I have taken some time out to gather more info, in particular now that I have a working OBD2 reader. I also purchased TorquePro.

I have TURTLED the car twice in the past three days in order to effect Battery Calibration. Below is the "story" ... but the take-away is ...the deterioration values still disappoint me.

I have a feeling that the dealer in its original 1-year-9,225km ownership let the car sit at 100% for extended periods of time, but I have no way of verifying this. 9,225km on a demonstrator also is quite a few "miles", and I am sure many of those miles were "hard" driving.

Before I present the data, has anyone figured out how to get SOH (without going to the dealer) ?

========================================
On 31Jul2016 I turtled the EV.

Ending values when I powered OFF:
Odo: 13,881km
Ambient Temp: 30C
Trip Meter (this is meaningless): Driven: 183.5km at 15.9kWh/100km at 16km/h (VERY meaningless as I stopped for extended periods of time without Power-Off);
Display: 1%
BMS:
SOC: 3.0%
MinDet: 12.1%
MaxDet: 14.1%
BattVolts: 297.8
MinCell: 3.06V
MaxCell: 3.14V
BattTemps: 33C-34C Fan ON

Plugged in using portable charge cord;
Kill-A-Watt Meter records 2,225W.
Display: 11:50 remaining charge time (from 1%).

========================================
Next Morning 01Aug2016

Kill-A-Watt Meter records 28.93 kWh having been pulled from wall socket.

Display: 100% 169km 26C

BMS:
SOC: 95.0%
MinDet: 10.0%
MaxDet: 11.2%
BattVolts: 396.7
MinCell: 4.12V
MaxCell: 4.14V
BattTemps: 27C-29C Fan OFF

On August 1 I drove 100km and ended at 44% of the battery (BMS).
I turtled the car again by late afternoon of the following day (02August). This time I let it shut off (with “Low Battery, Charge Immediately” and “Unable to Start Vehicle 0%”)


Ending values at SHUTDOWN:
Odo: 14,037km
Ambient Temp: 31C
Trip Meter (this is meaningless): Driven: 156.0km at 15.3kWh/100km at 22km/h (VERY meaningless as I stopped for extended periods of time without Power-Off and also coasted in N down-hills to use energy faster);
Display: 0%
BMS:
SOC: 2.5%
MinDet: 10.0%
MaxDet: 11.2%
BattVolts: 296.1
MinCell: 3.02V
MaxCell: 3.14V
BattTemps: 32C-33C Fan ON

Plugged in using portable charge cord;
Kill-A-Watt Meter records 2,149W. PowerFactor 0.97; 238.6V;
Display: 13:00 remaining charge time (from 1%).


========================================
Next Morning 03Aug2016

Kill-A-Watt Meter records 29.13 kWh having been pulled from wall socket. ( I know ... there is "waste" that does not end up in the battery ... but, hey, at least it's a data-point. )

Display: 100% 168km 27C

BMS:
SOC: 95.0%
MinDet: 10.0%
MaxDet: 11.0%
BattVolts: 396.7
MinCell: 4.12V
MaxCell: 4.14V
BattTemps: 28C-29C Fan OFF
CCL: 71.1
DCL: 90.0
CEC: 3,351.5 (wish I had looked at this and next value earlier)
CED: 3,306.7

 

[SoulEV2016]

very good values (for cells voltages and kWh at plug).
:idea: Very thanks for this ! :idea:

 

[ZuinigeRijder]

Thank you ZuinigeRijder and JejuSoul.

This Deterioration issue has been bothering me, so I have taken some time out to gather more info, in particular now that I have a working OBD2 reader. I also purchased TorquePro.

I have TURTLED the car twice in the past three days in order to effect Battery Calibration. Below is the "story" ... but the take-away is ...the deterioration values still disappoint me.

I have a feeling that the dealer in its original 1-year-9,225km ownership let the car sit at 100% for extended periods of time, but I have no way of verifying this. 9,225km on a demonstrator also is quite a few "miles", and I am sure many of those miles were "hard" driving.

Before I present the data, has anyone figured out how to get SOH (without going to the dealer) ?


Odometer: 14,037km
MinDet: 10.0%
MaxDet: 11.0%[/color]
BattVolts: 396.7
MinCell: 4.12V
MaxCell: 4.14V
BattTemps: 28C-29C Fan OFF
CCL: 71.1
DCL: 90.0
CEC: 3,351.5 (wish I had looked at this and next value earlier)
CED: 3,306.7

Unfortunately we do not know how to measure SOH, but the dealer has a program to show this.

I bought my car also second hand, with 10.000 km driven. I could only measure the first time with 18.700 km.

km Max Det Min Det CED
18709 11.6 10.0 ?
24454 11.1 9.6 4951
32662 10.2 9.0 6270

So the values are somewhat the same as your values at my first measurement. Luckily the measurements did not get worse with my car, even a little better.

My CED/km*100 is 19 kWh/100 km
Yours is 24 kWh/100 km, so it looks that it is driven much less economic than mine (26% more energy consumption).
So yours 13794 km corresponds to roughly mine 17380 km (the factor 1,26 or 26%). Then the battery deterioration values are comparable.

That is also that I stated that the battery deterioration should be compared in relation to CED instead of actual km or miles driven.
How more economic you drive, how longer the batteries will last.

 

[Leafer]

That is also that I stated that the battery deterioration should be compared in relation to CED instead of actual km or miles driven.
How more economic you drive, how longer the batteries will last.

Good suggestion I will keep track of CED & CEC in future data postings ...

 

[ZuinigeRijder]

That is also that I stated that the battery deterioration should be compared in relation to CED instead of actual km or miles driven.
How more economic you drive, how longer the batteries will last.

Good suggestion I will keep track of CED & CEC in future data postings ...

Also the Max and Min Cell voltages are comparable. For me they are both 4.12 Volt at 100% SOC.

You could also try to check the driving history. In my case the dealer did not clear this, so I could see the history of all drives of the previous owner, with date, km driven and kWh/100 km. My car was used mostly the same distance and with a 17 kWh/100 km. Also the navigation history was not cleared.

You can find the history via EV button -> ECO Driving -> History

 

[Elmil]

Leefer (sorry, just can't stand the forum commercial hijacks), I guess you live in the US and suffer from higher temperatures than we do in the cool Scandinavia...
But I have also seen signs of dealers not understanding how to charge an EV. If they are lucky, they use a 20kW chademo and think it's fully charged when finished at 83%. But they might as well just connect the original EVSE over night and the car will be standing in the showroom for 3 weeks at 100% SOC before anyone calls for a test drive...

I am now at CED = 6880kWh discharged during 40727 km = 16.9kWh/100km average.
As it happens, I did a similar 100% -> 0% trip just a few weeks ago. Here's for a comparison:

START@100%:

BMS: [Leefer]    [Elmil]

SOC: [95.0%]    [95.0%]
MinDet: [10.0%]    [ 9.6%]
MaxDet: [11.2%]    [10.6%]
BattVolts: [396.7]    [397.1]
MinCell:  [4.12V]    [4.12V]
MaxCell:  [4.14V]    [4.14V]
BattTemps: [27C-29C]    [18C-19C]

Ending values at SHUTDOWN:

Odo: [14,037km]			[38,936km]
Ambient Temp: [31C]		[19.0C]
Display: [0%]			[0%, 212.2km, 73.0Ah/25.9kWh used]

BMS: 
SOC: [2.5%]			[2.0%]
MinDet: [10.0%]			[ 9.6%]
MaxDet: [11.2%]			[10.6%]
BattVolts: [296.1]		[297.4V]
MinCell: [3.02V]		[3.06V]
MaxCell: [3.14V]		[3.14V]
BattTemps: [32C-33C]		[23C-24C]

Charging to 100%:
[Wall:29.13 kWh] 		[Wall: 29.8kWh @ 2.0kW]
				        [BMS: 74,2Ah/26.8kWh] (89.9% efficiency)
BMS: 
SOC: [95.0%]			[95.0%]
MinDet: [10.0%]			[7.5%]
MaxDet: [11.0%]			[8.5%]
BattVolts: [396.7]		    [398.1V]
MinCell: [4.12V]		    [4.14V]
MaxCell: [4.14V]		    [4.14V]
BattTemps: [28C-29C]    [23C-25C]

Probably the temperature is the main reason for higher deterioration, but on the other hand my values were at its worse at christmas last year, (11.2%/10.2%, 22610km, 3749kWh).
My feeling is that if you drive VERY gently and get most miles out of the used energy, the deterioration values will go down. So my interpretation is that the deterioration values are more connected to the DTE function than to the physical state of health of the battery.

 

[Leafer]

Leefer (sorry, just can't stand the forum commercial hijacks), I guess you live in the US and suffer from higher temperatures than we do in the cool Scandinavia...
But I have also seen signs of dealers not understanding how to charge an EV. If they are lucky, they use a 20kW chademo and think it's fully charged when finished at 83%. But they might as well just connect the original EVSE over night and the car will be standing in the showroom for 3 weeks at 100% SOC before anyone calls for a test drive...

I am now at CED = 6880kWh discharged during 40727 km = 16.9kWh/100km average.
As it happens, I did a similar 100% -> 0% trip just a few weeks ago. Here's for a comparison:
..................
Probably the temperature is the main reason for higher deterioration, but on the other hand my values were at its worse at christmas last year, (11.2%/10.2%, 22610km, 3749kWh).
My feeling is that if you drive VERY gently and get most miles out of the used energy, the deterioration values will go down. So my interpretation is that the deterioration values are more connected to the DTE function than to the physical state of health of the battery.

Hello Elmil:

Interesting way of showing the data side-by-side.

But, no, I am not in the US. I am in the Med (Mediterranean). Otherwise your conclusions match mine, except no CHAdeMO nearby here. I suspect the dealer used the KIA supplied charge cord (2.2kW) and kept it at FULL (100%) for extended periods of time for the first year, while also letting journalists (and potential customers and General Manager) drive it to 9,225km for 12 months until I purchased it.

For better comparisons let's all track the CED as well. So far my EV's "efficiency" is very "bad" (3,306.7/140.37 = 23.56kWh/100km). And one of these days maybe I will make some time for a dealer SOH analysis ;-)

 

[SoulEV2016]

I suspect the dealer used the KIA supplied charge cord (2.2kW).

With diag. tool, you can view the "operating hours" of the car.

Like we have view early, when you use "always" slow charger (less than 2kW), this value is very high (like me with my car).

 

[JejuSoul]

I am now at CED = 6880kWh discharged during 40727 km = 16.9kWh/100km average.

Beware that the CED number also includes regenerated energy from braking.
My car is at CED = 4463kWh discharged during 21754 km = 20.5kWh/100km average.
But my real average is about 12.5kWh/100km because I recover a lot of energy using regen.
I drive slower than Elmil. I need to slow down more often. There are a lot more traffic lights and speed cameras on my road.
This difference in road layout does not easily relate to the differences in deterioration between my car and Elmil's.

That we do not have a clear value for Cumulative Energy Discharged (CED) may explain why we the relationship in our data is much stronger for 'deterioration increases with distance' than 'deterioration increases with battery cycles'.

As for 'deterioration increases in hotter climates', it is an assumption we all believe will be true,but the data doesn't show it yet. The best performing car in our data set is currently not in Scandinavia but in Southern California. Look at the TMS Torture Test thread, and then try to explain why that car deteriorates least. I already replied to L eafer that I don't trust the one-off outliers. I think his car will revert towards to the mean when we get more data. On the other hand I think it is far more likely that Elmil's car will deteriorate slower over the long term than any car in hotter climates including mine. Let's wait and see.

The amazing aspect of this is that we have no value for SOH yet even after doing all this for a year now. Are we really all still on 100% SOH. If so the Soul EV really does have a better battery than most other EVs.

 

[Leafer]

Beware that the CED number also includes regenerated energy from braking.
My car is at CED = 4463kWh discharged during 21754 km = 20.5kWh/100km average.
But my real average is about 12.5kWh/100km because I recover a lot of energy using regen.

The above 3 sentences taken together appear to be in conflict with each other, either because a) you misspoke, or b) I do not understand how CED is computed. And/or c) there is a fundamental flaw in trying to compare the CED/Odometer with the Energy Consumption the car displays (your 12.5 number).

Your CED "says" you are very "inefficient" ... BUT if it includes regen ... then it should be much closer to your 12.5kWh/100km on display. (The 12.5 is a believable number.) Unless the regenerated energy is ADDED to (rather than subtracts from as one would expect) the energy used for normal driving ...

So ... sorry for being confused. Please let's explain (or point me to an earlier thread) about how CED & CEC are calculated, and how it relates to Energy Consumption displayed for each trip.

TIA.

 

[SoulEV2016]

That why you must use LOG in Torque Pro with OBD2 reader to view the REGEN. after the trip.

Like this :

TRIP START

TRIP STOP

TRIP RESULT

28km (flat highway at 90km/h at the wheel = 94 km/h at display)
4,1 kWh used
0,5 kWh regenerated
12% of regeneration during the trip.

complets logs here (LibreOffice ODS Format) if you want draw graphics : http://up.sur-la-toile.com/i1hYK (mirror = http://www.4shared.com/zip/S9hfwgQ7ce/torqueLOG-06-08-2016.html )

 

[JejuSoul]

So ... sorry for being confused. Please let's explain (or point me to an earlier thread) about how CED & CEC are calculated, and how it relates to Energy Consumption displayed for each trip.

No need to be sorry. The way these counters work is not what you would initially expect.

On the first page of this thread I posted about this issue on Sun Nov 22, 2015

I do not fully understand the Cumulative Energy counters.
They do not seem to match what I put in or use. Here's an example.
On Nov 11th I did a lengthy test drive charging the car before and after.
I took readings at home, a 30 min drive from where I started and finished the 215km round-the-island-on-one-charge-trip.
Total driving for the day was 273km, which took 7.5 hours.
....The readings on the charging machines from the 3 charging sessions suggest I added 35kWh.
Using the reading on the car's display 8 km/kWh suggests I used 34kWh for the trip.
SOC at start = 56%, SOC at end = 62% which is why I charged more than I used.
The Cumulative Energy Charged data increased by 50kWh
The Cumulative Energy Discharged data increased by 48kWh
What is the reason for this disparity 35 / 34 contrasted with 50 / 48

The answer was provided by goev the author of the Soul EV OVMS software a few days later,

Jejusoul, can recuperation be the cause of the differences you see in your numbers?
If your car produced 14-15kWh in recuperation during driving, this would add up:

Cumulative energy charged: 35 from charging + 15 from recuperation = 50kWh
Cumulative energy discharged: 34 actually used "from battery" + 15 of the recuperated energy = 49kWh.

This might also explain why the cumulative discharge/odometer is so high on my car: 21.62kWh/100km.

 

[mtndrew1]

My deterioration values have changed.

Previously, they were:

Min Det: 6.5%
Max Det: 9.0%

Max Det Cell: 3
Min Det Cell: 41

CEC: 9120
CED: 8721

Odometer: 27,100 miles


Now:

Min Det: 2.0%
Max Det: 9.6%

Max Det Cell: 3
Min Det Cell: 1

CEC: 9534
CED: 9114

Odometer: 28,200 miles

US ZIP Code: 90248 home, 90015 office

 

[JejuSoul]

Thanks for all the recent data.

The leadership race for least deterioration when measured against distance has a new leader. With an amazing lead.
mtndrew1 - 312,986km
2016Electric - 222,222km
Elmil - 203,635km

USA in Gold, Canada in Silver and Sweden in Bronze.

Using the CED number to compute energy consumption kWh/100km does not help understand these rankings at all -

mtndrew1 - 20.1 kWh/100km
2016Electric - 23.6 kWh/100km
Elmil - 16.9 kWh/100km

In fact almost all of us are between 20 and 24 kWh/100km. There are only 2 outliers. Elmil consumes less than everyone else. and SoulEV2016 consumes far more.
Edit I originally posted that 33.6 kWh/100km suggests a data error but from SoulEV2016 statements below it seems not.

 

[mtndrew1]

USA! USA! USA!

What do the kilometers represent next to our respective numbers (312,986km in my case)?

 

[mtndrew1]

There are only 2 outliers. Elmil consumes less than everyone else. and SoulEV2016 consumes far more. ( 33.6 kWh/100km suggests a data error)

Could this be due to SoulEV2016 charging at an extremely low rate (1.1kW if memory serves) at a very low efficiency? Or am I misunderstanding the values?

 

[SoulEV2016]

Probably not because counter is inside the Battery BMS current sensor (shunt). :idea:

But consumption is only because of the foot profil of the driver, right ?
:mrgreen: my previous consumption with my old ICE car (250ch) is 13L/100km.

I drive fast and drain battery usually with 87km (31km use 1/3 of the gauge of the dash).
I only drive at 90km/h on highway when i must drive more than 100km per day (usually ... 2 days per month).

ON/OFF profil to resume. :twisted:

 

[mtndrew1]

I drive fast and drain battery usually with 87km (31km use 1/3 of the gauge of the dash).
I only drive at 90km/h on highway when i must drive more than 100km per day (usually ... 2 days per month).

ON/OFF profil to resume. :twisted:

Do you have an equivalent to our mi/kWh on your car to give an example of your driving efficiency? I usually average somewhere between 3.8-4.2 mi/kWh which I guess would be about 6.1-6.8 km/kWh. How does that compare?

I know there's a language barrier but I'm not sure what "ON/OFF profile to resume" means. Is that a function of your car?