Battery Ageing Model

[SoulEV2016]

ON = 100% accelerator
OFF = 100% regenerative braking

Usually no pedal brake before 4 meters.
Usually always 4 blues squares on regenerative braking.

In futur torque Pro LOGs, you can read the km/kWh column.

Usually trip is like that : http://imageshack.com/a/img924/2295/MsBgY1.png

Usually highway trip :
http://imageshack.com/a/img922/866/wsYbD5.png
http://imageshack.com/a/img924/3633/CENTF3.png
http://imageshack.com/a/img924/2191/gSKldW.png

 

[JejuSoul]

Do you have an equivalent to our mi/kWh on your car to give an example of your driving efficiency?

Energy economy for my car: average driving speed about 30mph
displayed on dash - 5 miles / kWh
calculated using CED - 3.1 miles / kWh

Energy economy for SoulEV2016: average driving speed about 90mph
displayed on dash - 2.2 miles / kWh
calculated using CED - 1.8 miles / kWh

The figure displayed on the dash calculates using only the energy that you pay for from the cable. This is the one that makes sense to people.
The figure calculated using CED calculates using all the energy coming out of the battery. This includes regen energy.
It seems counter intuitive that regen energy would lessen your energy economy. But this is what happens.

The most interesting discussion for me is which of these 2 values is the one that is more closely related to battery deterioration. Logically it should be the second one because all use of the battery leads to wear and tear on the battery.

 

[Leafer]

The most interesting discussion for me is which of these 2 values is the one that is more closely related to battery deterioration. Logically it should be the second one because all use of the battery leads to wear and tear on the battery.

Good point. *AND* that regen energy traverses the battery TWICE !

 

[JejuSoul]

There's a change in perspective in the latest data. Now the strongest correlate for battery deterioration is the age of the car not the distance it has travelled.

Of particular interest is Leafer's car. In terms of age his car is totally normal. Our car's are seeing about 5% deterioration per year. If this trend continues in a linear fashion (which I doubt: it should slow later) then our cars will all last roughly 8 years until battery replacement. This I believe is the warranty. The following cars are all close to this average. Birkeland, JejuSoul, Leafer and ZuinigeRijder. (Am only listing cars more than 1 year old here.)

The two main outliers are mtndrew1 whose car will last 15 years, and Elmil whose car will last 6 years.

The interesting data points here are for Leafer who is an outlier at the bottom regarding distance, and for Elmil who has always been ahead of the pack in the distance race.
The reason in Leafer's case may well be the guess - "I have a feeling that the dealer in its original 1-year-9,225km ownership let the car sit at 100% for extended periods of time,"
Elmil drives more than most. His car seems to be deteriorating with distance not time. He won't get the battery replacement in 6 years because he will already be over the warranty distance.

The main point - none of our cars will get a warranty battery replacement. In fact, if as expected deterioration gets less in later years, then all will last much longer than the warranty period.
(A possible exception to this are the 4 Soul EVs being tested by the AVTA in downtown Phoenix.)

 

[GizmoEV]

I would love to add my data to the mix but I need the equipment to do so. I'm about 50 miles north of Portland, Oregon and have 21,000 miles on my 2016 Soul EV+ picked up on July 17, 2015. Where is a list of reliable equipment I can procure to collect the data?

 

[JejuSoul]

I would love to add my data to the mix but I need the equipment to do so. I'm about 50 miles north of Portland, Oregon and have 21,000 miles on my 2016 Soul EV+ picked up on July 17, 2015. Where is a list of reliable equipment I can procure to collect the data?

The easiest and cheapest option is a Bluetooth adapter connected to Torque Pro on an Android phone or tablet.
I use a KONNWEI KW902 It is what many of the others on this thread use.
See the Torque Pro thread for how to connect and add the necessary codes.
Recently SoulEV2016 has add some great dashboards for Torque which makes installing the displays much easier.

If you have an iPhone and are willing to start your own thread detailing how to get this working.
Engine Link - OBD II vehicle monitoring and diagnosis can use the Torque Pro codes.
You will need a wifi adapter such as OBDLink MX Wi-Fi: OBD Adapter/Diagnostic Scanner for iOS
It seems like it should work, but someone needs to test it and confirm.

If you are feeling really intrepid then I recommend the OVMS module. In theory it is by far the best option, But it hasn't been easy to get working by the few users who tried.
There is an OVMS thread on this forum but its not very active. You will find links to the German OVMS forum there, which is a bit busier.

 

[GizmoEV]

Thank you. I have an iPad so that route is possibly cheaper but not sure of the outcome. On the other hand, Android tablets can be had for around $50 so I may go that route unless someone knows of any Windows software. Windows 10 Mobil would be ideal then I could just use my Lumia 950XL. I'll post when I get results.

 

[JejuSoul]

After a long hot summer when I kept my car at a fairly low charge I have begun charging my car to 100% occasionally again.
The deterioration numbers have fallen each of the last 100% charges.
This may be 'balancing', 'calibration', or a 'change in season effect'.
Is anyone else seeing big falls as the weather cools.
Opposite effect is a big rise in the Fuel Economy from 7.7 to 8.7 km/kWh.
This is easier to explain because the battery fans are no longer running all the time, and I use less AC.

My deterioration numbers are now 24,000km, max 6.5%, min 1.5%
I am in second place not far behind mtndrew1.
Seems an odd result. The cars in the 2 hottest climates are currently in first and second place.

 

[Birkeland]

The temperature in Norway has decreased from its summer highs, and my car has shown min=6.1% and max=9.0% for a long time now. The car is at about 31.200km and has shown the same deterioration since about 27.000km. I have also charged to 100% several times the last weeks. From now on the temperature will decrease further, so I will post any changes. But I am a bit surprised that the values are the same as they were during the high temperatures this summer.

 

[GizmoEV]

I finally have a way to read OBDII data on the Kia Soul EV! I'm using Car Scanner Pro on Windows 10. Right now the author had to send me a beta version with a fix so it would read the Torque PID files properly. Also, I had to capitalize all the byte references. Apparently Torque is not case sensitive. :?: A few things are not matching up but that is for another thread I'll create when the beta has been released.

I have a 2016 Kia Soul EV+ I picked up the day it was delivered to Portland, OR on July 17, 2015. The car now has 22,209 miles on it. It usually is charged to 80% each morning during the week and to 100% on Saturday morning unless it is known ahead of time that a full charge is needed for the day. I charge with an EVSEupgraded Panasonic EVSE on 240VAC. The car draws 18.4A as measured with a clamp meter and verified with Car Scanner at 18.5A. As you can tell, we put quite a few miles on the car. Usually, our out of town trips have 2-3 quick charges typically at 50kW. I have taken a hand full of trips where I did 7 quick charges, not all to 84%, in a day but that isn't the norm. Basically I don't worry about how often I quick charge but I also don't charge fully if I only need enough to get to my destination.

As of this evening:
Minimum Deterioration = 7.4% (cell #1)
Maximum Deterioration = 10.1% (cell #12)

The car was at 64%SOC.

 

[GizmoEV]

After about 30 miles of driving and a full charge this morning there has been a slight change.

Minimum Deterioration = 7.5% (cell #37)
Maximum Deterioration = 10.1% (cell #12)

I'm charging another full charge but set my 240VAC EVSE to 7A and the charger is charging at about 6A which is very close to the power it would do on 120VAC with the included EVSE. We'll see if a very slow charge balances things out a little as far as deterioration is concerned.

 

[JejuSoul]

GizmoEV - great that you have got the codes to work on a Windows 10 phone. Looking forward to your post on how to do this.

Not that much should be inferred from a single reading, but if we did then I would say your car is completely average.
Measured against distance your rate of deterioration is exactly on the trend line.
You drive more than average each month, hence measured against time your rate of deterioration is slightly below the trend line.

To get a better comparison with other users could you provide a bit more data..
How fast do you drive, how hard do you brake?
Could you share the Cumulative Energy counters.
How hot does your area get in summer? How often do you use the AC.?
How cold does your area get in winter? How often did you use the heater?

Also do you notice any loss in actual range yet?

 

[GizmoEV]

To get a better comparison with other users could you provide a bit more data..
How fast do you drive, how hard do you brake?

For my longer drives I typically drive 60-63mph (~100kph). When I brake I usually let regen do as much of the deceleration as possible down to around 10mph or so. Basically I slow down more gently than I would in an equivalent ICE but not so much so that it takes me for ever to get to a stop. I am almost always driving in B mode with Eco mode off as I haven't seen any range benefit for me and my driving style.

Could you share the Cumulative Energy counters.

The numbers I'm getting with this beta version of Car Scanner Pro don't make sense to me so I don't think they are any where near accurate.

Cumulative Energy Charged = 4.4
Cumulative Energy Discharged = 5.9

I'm going to see if I can get a hold of an Android tablet to see if it is a software issue or otherwise. Other data doesn't seem to make sense either like Min and Max temp are backwards, the PRNDB values are all one ahead of the actual selector position, and a few other items don't display. Other data like the deterioration data, OBC charging current and voltage, SOC, Battery temps, some of the VMCU items, and the TPMS data are fine.

How hot does your area get in summer? How often do you use the AC.?
How cold does your area get in winter? How often did you use the heater?

We have relatively mild climate here. The hottest we typically get in the summer is in the 80-100°F (26-37°C) range. The hottest times usually last 2-3 weeks total out of the summer. The prevailing wind here is directly in from the coast and up the Columbia River. The winter is typically above freezing most days and might freeze at night. The coldest I remember seeing the car report was ~29°F (-2°C) at the end of November 2015. The predicted range on the GOM was 69miles. That is the lowest I have ever seen it. I typically keep the climate control on auto. When I'm driving it is usually set at 72-75°F (22-24°C). It is rare that I don't have more range remaining than predicted at the start of a trip. The only times I have had less range remaining is when I have a headwind or I drive 70-75mph. IIRC, my winter monthly efficiency is around 3.3mi/kWh and summer has been hitting 3.9-4.0mi/kWh. Most of my driving is between Portland, OR and Seattle, WA.

Also do you notice any loss in actual range yet?

I haven't noticed any other than the GOM has not given me over 93miles on a full charge for a while. Late last week the weather was warm and it read 90mi with the climate control off. Typically I see 85-88 mi with climate control on.

 

[SoulEV2016]

Got it, the first travel with Deterioration indicator by cell raising ...

1st travel LOGS : http://up.sur-la-toile.com/i1iac ( mirror = http://www.4shared.com/file/K7WgEKyyce/trackLog-2016-sept-27_09-47-06.html )

2nd travel LOGS (same, return road) : http://up.sur-la-toile.com/i1iad ( http://www.4shared.com/file/F5qxDSmyce/trackLog-2016-sept-27_10-42-26.html )

 

[GizmoEV]

Looks like maybe the Windows 10 app doesn't understand all the Torque formulas yet. Here is what I get from Torque on an Android tablet...

Cumulative Energy Charged = 7428.0 kWh
Cumulative Energy Discharged = 7231.9 kWh
Difference = 196.1 kWh ~97.5% efficient

Not sure how close the correlation of energy with Ah is: 20,122.9Ah charged, 20,210.8Ah discharged. (~99.6% efficient)
Operating time = 1975.8 h

Amp-hour efficiency seems about what I would expect with energy efficiency lower since the voltage is lower on discharge than on charge.

Max Deterioration = 10.0% (Cell #11)
Min Deterioration = 7.4% (Cell #37)

The car just passed 25k miles and has had a quick charge to 84% (80% BMS) since last change.

 

[JejuSoul]

Deterioration numbers on my car went back up. Am now 24,503km max 7.0% min 5.1%.
This puts me back to the middle of the pack, slightly behind Birkeland and Elmil, which is where my car has been in this race for most of the past year.
That mtndrew1's car is so far out in front seems to be an outlier caused by having so few readings.
Over a complete year things seem to average out.

(An alternative explanation to why my deterioration numbers went back up is that the weather has been unusually hot here the last few days. September was mostly 10C cooler than the summer. But the temps have been back in the 30s recently. The really unusual part is that the nights are that hot in October. The AC is back on. The battery heater is needed all the time again. My Energy Economy is going back down to summer levels. This is is all caused by the approaching typhoon, which will hit in 12 hours.)

 

[Birkeland]

I just had my car in for my second service (30.000km service). My SOH was still at 100%, min det = 7.1% and max det = 9.0%. My odometer is at about 32.000km.

 

[mtndrew1]

Looks like I'm no longer an outlier.

30,500 miles (49,100 km)
CEC 10,263
CED 9,807
Min det 11.4%
Max det 13.2%
Min cell #19
Max cell #3

I've had the car 24 months now.

 

[JejuSoul]

Looks like I'm no longer an outlier.

No. That was a big jump downwards but that is not the first time I have seen this.You now join the rest of the pack. It's no longer worth making a ranking order because all our cars are pretty much the same (160,000km +/-10,000). Exceptions are zero deterioration new cars. And two outliers to the downside. ilectric who discusses his loss of range in the 26,000 mile thread. And Leafer who bought a demo car, which we assume was badly used/kept.

---------------------------

I charged from 7% to 100% last night as part of a calibration check.
Got 200km on the GOM for the first time in many months.

18 month old car 24,994km , max det 7.5%, min det 5.8%

Energy charged = 25.2 kWh => Full pack 25/0.925 = 27.24kWh
I am still confident that my car has 100% SOH

 

[JejuSoul]

I began this morning with a fully charged car.
max det 7.5%, min det 4.7%. Started at 100% GOM 200km

I drove fast over the mountain 110km/h, decelerating hard before the speed cameras. Very unusual driving speed and style for my car.
An hour later my deterioration numbers were: